Misinformation?
  • davido
    Posts: 178
    Misinformation - purposeful or accidental? You decide:

    https://aleteia.org/2019/08/08/the-oldest-known-eucharistic-hymn-in-a-wonderful-new-english-translation/

    “This new translation of the ancient Latin text was completed by Fr. Adrian Fortescue, for the new Brebeuf Hymnal.”

    Also CHRIST IST ERSTANDEN is renamed VICTIMAE PASCHALI and attributed to Wipo of Burgundy.

  • The re-labeling of Christ is erstanden can only be the result of a tenuous rationalisation, owing, as it does, to its having been imposed solely on the grounds of a false ecclesiastical chauvanism. While it is, in fact, derived (quite loosely) from the sequence, Victimae Paschali Laudes, it does have a life, history, and legitimacy all its own. It really is not Victimae Paschali. And, while Wipo may or may not have penned Victimae (he most likely did), his text and that of the German chorale (which itself dates to the early XIIth century) have but the most oblique literary relationship. This notwithstanding, both Christ ist.. and Victimae Paschali... were commonly sung in alternating stanza-verses as a processional hymn - which hints that Victimae led a double life as mass sequence and as a Latin processional hymn with German refrains. This was not unusual in mediaeval Germany and held true for other sequences as well for centuries preceding the Reformation.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Fr. Fortescue must have a namesake?
  • More Catholic virtue-signaling. The tune is CHRIST IST ERSTANDEN in this case and if Jeff wishes to return to the Catholic name, perhaps he should return to the Catholic tune and cite its source properly instead of trying to paint over legitimately Protestant hymnody with a loosely Catholic paintbrush.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,800
    Jeff sent out an e-mail in which he mentioned that the Aleteia writer got the detail about Fortescue incorrect, so the mistake isn't his.
  • Chonak,

    Thanks for clarifying. I wondered if I were even more disconnected from reality that I sometimes feel.
  • Interesting points. I have always appreciated the translation by fortescue, but it does not, if I recall correctly, match the original latin metre that the latin text goes to. I tried that out a few years ago and was disappointed with the result. I do not feel that Christ ist erstanden is a good choice of tune to use for the text, it lacks some of the solemnity that better matches the original melody and clashes more with the nature of the melodies of the communion antiphons. It truly is an innovation.

    I do agree, Mr. Ostrowski is a very fine man, who has provided fine things for the Church, which I have certainly benefitted from. but I have to criticize his hymnals as having too often , while keeping texts that are very catholic, often using music which is most protestant/romantic/sentimentalist. I suppose the tide can only turn back so quickly. His work, in many instances, though very helpful, and widely varying, is at heart, rooted in liturgical /spiritual compromise (focusing on the novus ordo theology and liturgy in his work), which is at some point must give way to a more authentic, consistent orthopraxis.

    Being that we sing the english metrical texts of Sequences of the Salisbury Use (facilitated by Dr. Renwick and Mr. Carver of hymnoglypt) in our Mission I am intrigued by this idea of congregational participation. I am not that aware of Sequences having before the year 1500 a custom of alternating their verses with hymns/carols sung by the congregation, but perhaps I have more to learn about that?

    I'm more concerned that the website with the article has a video of Pope Francis speaking about environmentalist concerns, saving the ocean from harm... which despite some legitimate concern on some level, knowing the context and other elements involved, continues to point to neo-pagan modernist influences attempting to deceive lay faithful into being led astray.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,505
    @ MJO Victimae Paschali Laudes is for us the Easter Sequence, but the Sarum use, has other ideas,
    Easter Sunday, Fulgens preclara
    Easter Monday, Zyma Vetus
    Easter Tuesday Prome casta
    Easter Wednesday, Concinat
    Easter Thursday, Dic nobis
    Easter Friday, Victimae...
    Easter Saturday, Mane prima...
    Low Sunday, Laudes Salvatori,

    Adam of St Victor has the following,
    Easter Sunday, Fulgens preclara
    Easter Monday, Ecce dies celebris
    Easter Tuesday Lux illuxit
    Easter Wednesday, Salve dies
    Easter Thursday, Mane prima...
    Easter Friday, Sexta passus feria
    Easter Saturday, Mundi renovatio
    Low Sunday, Zyma Vetus

    I wonder how many places beside the Canons of Rome that had Victimae as the Easter Sunday Sequence?
    For those who have more time here is the link to the Sequence database, http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca/sources?segment=4064

    Of course beside the Liturgical Sequence, we have the prose, sometimes sung before the Sermon, these pieces are rather more interesting in their variety.

    This may give some idea or the entertaining possibilities,
    http://www1.cpdl.org/wiki/images/b/b8/Complete_Sequence_Polyphony_-_F.pdf
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 186
    As MJO said. In certain Lutheran parishes which have not yet completely wet the bed liturgically, the practice still remains on Easter of injecting the three verses of Christ ist erstanden into Victimae Paschali. This practice began in Passau in the 12th century.

    If one wishes to see it laid out in English: https://hymnary.org/hymn/WSCW1969/page/164 Use the links at the top of the page to continue on to p. 165, etc. VPL is written with the beamed 8ths; CIE in metrical quarters and halves. Leaving aside the matter of what is licit in the current forms of the Catholic liturgy, this combination can be a very thrilling thing to experience, if the choir are chanting VPL ever so sweetly in the chancel, and several hundred Lutherans interject with their praise for what the Resurrection has won for them, accompanied by brass band and tympani and fire engine and so on.

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_ist_erstanden

    This also puts me in mind of the hymn “Gott sei gelobet und gebedienet”, a pre-Reformation vernacular Leise fashioned after the melody of Lauda Sion Salvatorem.

    1. O Lord, we praise Thee, bless Thee, and adore Thee,
    In thanksgiving bow before Thee.
    Thou with Thy body and Thy blood didst nourish
    Our weak souls that they may flouish:
    O Lord, have mercy!
    May Thy body, Lord, born of Mary,
    That our sins and sorrows did carry,
    And Thy blood for us plead
    In all trial, fear, and need:
    O Lord, have mercy!

    2. Thy holy body into death was given,
    Life to win for us in heaven.
    No greater love than this to Thee could bind us;
    May this feast thereof remind us!
    O Lord, have mercy!
    Lord, Thy kindness did so constrain Thee
    That Thy blood should bless and sustain me.
    All our debt Thou hast paid;
    Peace with God once more is made:
    O Lord, have mercy.

    3. May God bestow on us His grace and favor
    To please Him with our behavior
    And live as brethren here in love and union
    Nor repent this blest Communion!
    O Lord, have mercy!
    Let not Thy good Spirit forsake us;
    Grant that heavenly-minded He make us;
    Give Thy Church, Lord, to see
    Days of peace and unity:
    O Lord, have mercy!

    Luther kept the original first verse and melody, and added two more, and it remains in use in American Lutheran hymnals, and German hymnals both Catholic and Lutheran, because the editors of Catholic hymnals in Germany are intelligent people....