Books by Noel Jones arrived
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    I just got (through the mail) two magnificent books from Noel Jones

    I bought from this site

    Great work !!!
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 994
    And I got a book on how to improve recordkeeping for taxes. Yours are definitely preferable.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    May I someday have to pay taxes on book sales!

    I have just added mp3s of 50 of the Hymns To Mary and 36+ of the Eucharistic Hymns played live on the organ...somewhat too live at times! I get all excited about my playing and then wander in and hear my wife playing hymns and it is a humbling experience.

    They may be listened to one at a time when trying to find a hymn, or downloaded free to a player all together.

    Hmmm...ringtones may be next.

    www.thecatholichymnal.com - a project in development
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Ringtones (organ playing hymns) created from the CD's are up on the site with the addition of a Chant Kyrie by the SJN Liturgical Choir.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    I've got your "Anthology from the Catholic Hymnal." I finally had a time to look and sing today. They are beautiful hymns. Most of them I never heard before though. (I'm a convert, about 20 years.) I have hard time singing and 'actively participating' in mass in our parish and other parishes around here. Most hymns are 'pop -sacro,' and with questionable texts, (I guess we can still call them hymns, or religious songs?), or so-called "traditional hymns' with awkward texts, or Protestant hymns that are not Eucharistic at all. I wish we sing these hymns more; I'd love to sing them in mass, truly Eucharistic and also beautiful hymns to Mary. They are very Catholic. I wonder why we don't sing these hymns any more, especially when VII gave options to sing more hymns in mass? And I would think even those people who don't like latin for some reason could sing these Catholic hymns?
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    miacoyne: "especially when VII gave options to sing more hymns in mass?"

    Where do you get the idea that VII said to sing "more [or any!] hymns"?


    GIRM 1975

    ENTRANCE
    25. After the people have assembled, the entrance song begins as the priest and the ministers come in. The purpose of this song is to open the celebration, intensify the unity of the gathered people, lead their thoughts to the mystery of the season or feast, and accompany the procession of priest and ministers.
    26. The entrance song is sung alternately either by the choir and the congregation or by the cantor and the congregation; or it is sung entirely by the congregation or by the choir alone. The antiphon and psalm of the Graduale Romanum or the Simple Gradual may be used, or another song that is suited to this part of the Mass, the day, or the seasons and that has a text approved by the conference of bishops.
    If there is no singing for the entrance, the antiphon in the Missal is recited either by the faithful, by some of them, or by a reader; otherwise it is recited by the priest after the greeting.

    APPENDIX TO THE GENERAL INSTRUCTION
    For the Dioceses of the United States of America
    The following notes, related to the individual sections of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, include adaptations made by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops for the dioceses of the United States, as well as supplementary references.
    ...
    26. ENTRANCE SONG
    As a further alternative to the singing of the entrance antiphon and psalm of the Roman Gradual (Missal) or of the Simple Gradual, the Conference of Bishops has approved the use of other collections of psalms and antiphons in English, as supplements to the Simple Gradual, including psalms arranged in responsorial form, metrical and similar versions of psalms, provided they are used in accordance with the principles of the Simple Gradual and are selected in harmony with the liturgical season, feast or occasion (decree confirmed by the Consilium for the Implementation of the Constitution on the Liturgy, December 17, 1968).
    With regard to texts of other sacred songs from the psalter that may be used as the entrance song, the following criterion was adopted by the Conference of Bishops in November, 1969:
    The entrance rite should create an atmosphere of celebration. It serves the function of putting the assembly in the proper frame of mind for listening to the word of God. It helps people to become conscious of themselves as a worshiping community. The choice of texts for the entrance song should not conflict with these purposes.
    In general, during the most important seasons of the Church year, Easter time, Lent, Christmas and Advent, it is preferable that most songs used at the entrance be seasonal in nature.
    There are thus four options for the entrance song:
    1. the entrance antiphon and psalm of the Roman Gradual;
    2. the entrance antiphon and psalm of the Simple Gradual;
    3. song from other collections of psalms and antiphons;
    4. other sacred song chosen in accord with the above criterion.
    The same options exist for the sacred song at the offertory and communion, but not for the chants between the readings (below).
    Only if none of the above alternatives is employed and there is no entrance song, is the antiphon in the Missal recited.
    36. CHANTS BETWEEN THE READINGS
    ...


    "psalms and antiphons"
    "supplements to the Simple Gradual"
    "principles of the Simple Gradual"
    "other sacred songs from the psalter"

    Nothing about hymns.

    The GIRM 2003 is less clear, as the USCCB material was incorporated into the text, rather than maintained in an appendix. Lots of the above earlier text had to be left out.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Thanks for clarifying my confusion. I always thought no.4 option was 'other suitable liturgical songs' which is interperted as hymns. I'm glad to be wrong in this. (I understand this is not the best option. But after singing the propers, hymns can be sung, correct?)
    (I have 2003 GIRM. So, this one is not as complete as 1975? I assumed the newer one is more comprehensive to clarify the confusion.) Thanks again. I need to learn.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    miacoyne: "I always thought no.4 option was 'other suitable liturgical songs' ... clarify the confusion"

    If you carefully read the GIRM 1975 Appendix and then the GIRM 2003, you see that the direction has been toward confusion not toward clarity, and yes the USCCB has broadened their option four in 2003.

    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20030317_ordinamento-messale_en.html

    GIRM 2003

    GENERAL INSTRUCTION OF THE ROMAN MISSAL
    INSTITUTIO GENERALIS MISSALIS ROMANI
    Including Adaptations for the Dioceses of the United States of America
    ...
    The Entrance

    47. After the people have gathered, the Entrance chant begins as the priest enters with the deacon and ministers. The purpose of this chant is to open the celebration, foster the unity of those who have been gathered, introduce their thoughts to the mystery of the liturgical season or festivity, and accompany the procession of the priest and ministers.

    48. The singing at this time is done either alternately by the choir and the people or in a similar way by the cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone. In the dioceses of the United States of America there are four options for the Entrance Chant: (1) the antiphon from The Roman Missal or the Psalm from the Roman Gradual as set to music there or in another musical setting; (2) the seasonal antiphon and Psalm of the Simple Gradual; (3) a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the diocesan Bishop, including psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) a suitable liturgical song similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the diocesan Bishop.[55]

    If there is no singing at the entrance, the antiphon in the Missal is recited either by the faithful, or by some of them, or by a lector; otherwise, it is recited by the priest himself, who may even adapt it as an introductory explanation (cf. no. 31).

    ...

    footnote55
    Cf. John Paul II, Apostolic Letter Dies Domini, 31 May 1998 , no. 50: AAS 90 (1998), p. 745.


    In 1975, the explanatory details ("With regard to texts of other sacred songs from the psalter") precede and should help your understanding of option four ("other sacred song chosen in accord with the above criterion").

    In 2003, the explanatory details are completely absent, and option four ("a suitable liturgical song similarly approved") broadens the possible selections to almost anything you want.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    The day should come when vernacular hymns, such as the ones in our new Anthology, be sung at devotions outside of Mass and propers sung at Mass.

    But as long as the US Bishops feel that the congregation should be singing music in place of the propers, this will not happen. Though these hymns could replace them, along with others of merit, there is a tremendous lack of knowledge among Catholic musicians, as well as a total lack of concern and regard for their congregations.

    I'm going to post about this in another area of the forum.

    It is true that there were some very poor hymns, musically, in the old hymnals. But the texts are almost all very powerful and true to the faith. So my work is to work through the old books and evaluating the music, choosing what is good and filing away the less than wonderful music that accompanies some.

    As far as not having heard them, many of these have been out of print and not sung for as much as 100 years,
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    miacoyne: "But after singing the propers, hymns can be sung, correct?"

    The GIRM does not say anything (not encouraged, not forbidden) about this, but does it make sense?
    I look to the official music books for guidance about Introit, Offertory, Communion.

    For most of the liturgical year, things are straightforward: the Graduale Romanum has antiphon, psalm verse, doxology, antiphon, and no additional antiphons and verses; the Graduale Simplex has antiphon and many psalm verses, and no additional antiphons and verses.

    On a few occasions during the liturgical year, things are very different with special cases at certain points: e.g., Palm Sunday has several antiphons in succession which are followed by a hymn (see Gregorian Missal p 274ff ... we have all by now downloaded (right click, save) that PDF from the main page of www.musicasacra.com ... right? :-) ).

    Discovering this last example and applying it everywhere undermines the special and different character of these unique liturgies.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    So, in order to do the sung Mass in the right way, we have to replace all the hymns and sing propers, and chant responses. This is a 'Huge' task. I know it's wrong to feel this way , but I almost feel 'hopeless'. The congregation has been almost 'forced' to sing hymns until now, the patsor reminds us to sing in his talks, the music director reminds us of making 'joyful noise's as loud as we can ... They worked very hard to make us sing in the mass. Now how can we tell them not to sing hymns?
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    miacoyne: "This is a 'Huge' task ... hopeless."

    Huge? yes! Hopeless? no! Q: How do you eat an elephant? A: One bite at a time!

    Do the research to form a plan with an order of implementation but no deadlines, start with the first task of your plan, learn and implement, plan to stay with task one forever, so it becomes normal and expected and improves.

    It should be clear from the casualty stories posted to this forum, that moving too fast is deadly. Expect the effort to be continuous and that the progress will take more than one year, more than five years, more than twelve years (my parish!), and not have reached half-way toward the ideal, but starting and persevering is what matters.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    I have to disagree that moving too fast is deadly. Benedict has had no problems saying Mass Ad Orientem, Communion on the Tongue. I don't see anyone picketing St. Peter's over this. It's a matter of respect.

    You MUST have a pastor who wishes to glorify God through the celebration of the Mass. If you find a priest who rushes through prayers of the Mass, providing the Body of Christ but not the Blood to the congregation, telling little stories about things during the liturgy instead of sticking to the text, this is a place to go slowly. And have a back up plan...even if it means getting up early and making doughnuts, 'cause you may need it.

    If it's an associate pastor, be careful....very, very careful. He can get promoted/transferred at anytime and it is doughnut time again.

    If you discover that one, two or as in a case near and dear to me, three people in the music program have the power and history of running to the pastor behind your back to get their way...reporting on everything you do and say with their own spin to it, you are destined for an unholy crucifixion. It will be especially painful as you lose the really, really valuable people you need because of the animosity and totally un-Christian behavior they too will experience from these few people who want everything as good as it is now, but doing only the music that they know and like and they will force you to do it, bit by bit.

    And don't count on getting a contract to protect your posterior. Catholic churches rarely offer these and USCatholic diocese rarely participate in Unemployment nor, now I have found COBRA insurance coverage for employees...all this regardless of the words of Pope John Paul concerning the worthiness of employees. And do you know why they don't? They don't HAVE to....so why bother.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 678
    Even Pope Benedict, gloriously reigning, didn't start saying Mass ad orientem and giving Communion on the tongue on Day One of his pontificate.

    In fact, his "only Communion on the tongue" rule only started this year. That would be Year Three, not Day One. :)

    Slowly, slowly, catch 'e monkey. Or in this case, catch 'e flock-ie. :)
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Thanks for all the suggestions. One question keep coming back. Why GIRM 2003 has broadend options on NO4, interpreted as 'any litrugical songs..' Although this is the last option, it seems significant and has more influence on music ministry in the local churches than it may have intended. Would It be that the Church is aiming for more slower reform? How the original document of 2003 is presented? (not that we can translate it better than USCCB, but just curious.)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Sure, we can translate it better than ICEL and the USCCB. If we translate it, we'll leave the lists in their original order, which reflect the universal Church's priorities.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Maureen...when did the Benedictine Cross and Candles appear? I am thinking is, along with ad orientem was immediate....

    And the translation from the original would be...very....interesting.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Here's my translation. It doesn't differ much from the above.

    47. Populo congregato,
    After the people have gathered,

    dum ingreditur sacerdos cum diacono et ministris,
    when the priest enters with the deacon and ministers,

    cantus ad introitum incipitur.
    the chant at the introit is to be started.

    Finis huius cantus est celebrationem aperire,
    The end (purpose) of this chant is to open the celebration,

    unionem congregatorum fovere,
    foster the unity of those who have gathered,

    eorumque mentem in mysterium temporis liturgici vel festivitatis introducere
    lead their minds (thoughts) into the mystery of the liturgical season or feast,

    atque processionem sacerdotis ministrorumque comitari.
    and accompany the procession of the priest and ministers.

    48. Peragitur autem a schola et populo alternatim,
    It is carried out by the schola and people alternating

    vel simili modo a cantore et populo, vel totus a populo vel a schola sola.
    or similarly by (a/the) cantor and people, or entirely by the people, or by the schola alone.

    Adhiberi potest sive antiphona cum suo psalmo in Graduali romano vel in Graduali simplici exstans,
    The antiphon with its psalm in the Roman Gradual or in the Simple Gradual can be used,

    sive alius cantus, actioni sacræ, diei vel temporis indoli congruus, [55]
    or another chant/song for the sacred action, fitting for the character of the day or the time(season),

    cuius textus a Conferentia Episcoporum sit approbatus.
    whose text is to be approved by the Conference of Bishops.

    Si ad introitum non habetur cantus, antiphona in Missali proposita recitatur
    If there is not to be song at the introit, the antiphon presented in the Missal is to be recited

    sive a fidelibus, sive ab aliquibus ex ipsis, sive a lectore,
    either by the faithful, or by some of them, or by the lector,

    sin aliter ab ipso sacerdote,
    or if none of those by the priest himself,

    qui potest etiam in modum monitionis initialis (cf. n. 31) eam aptare.
    who can even adapt it into the form of an initial exhortation (cf. n. 31).
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Ummm....

    cuius textus a Conferentia Episcoporum sit approbatus.
    whose text has been approved by the Conference of Bishops.

    And exactly which texts HAVE been approved?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    To start with, those in By Flowing Waters. Beyond that, I don't know any.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    frogman: "I have to disagree that moving too fast is deadly. Benedict has had no problems"

    Here is a Pope Benedict XVI timeline with supporting online references:

    2005-apr-19 Benedict XVI elected pope
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/index.htm

    2005-oct-00 Synod on Eucharist (scheduled by John Paul II)
    http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0505432.htm

    2007-feb-22 Sacramentum Caritatis
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis_en.html

    2007-jul-07 Summorum Pontificum
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/motu_proprio/documents/hf_ben-xvi_motu-proprio_20070707_summorum-pontificum_lt.html

    2007-nov-05 candles and crucifix on altar
    http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2007/11/arrangement-of-papal-altar.html

    2008-jan-13 ad orientem
    http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/01/pope-baptizes-not-only-children-but.html

    2008-may-22 Communion received kneeling, on tongue
    http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/05/corpus-christi-in-rome-ii.html

    ... and this weekend (Sat Apr 18) completes the fourth year of his pontificate.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    November, then January and then May....but what's he done lately? ;<)<br />
    But Maureen's correct, it sure wasn't immediate like I thought!
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    miacoyne: "Why GIRM 2003 has broadend options on NO4"

    We need to be comparing apples to apples.
    GIRM 1975 ... versus ... GIRM 2000
    does not have broadened options.
    GIRM 1975+USA ... versus ... GIRM 2000+USA==2003
    has broadened because the current text clearly does not have the earlier restrictions.
    Remember the phrases "All things to the contrary notwithstanding" and
    "Effective immediately ... sole translation".
    What we are given now is what we work with now.

    miacoyne: "How the original document of 2003 is presented?"

    See the post above (chonak) which gives the Latin and his English translation.
    www.vatican.va
    The Holy See English
    Roman Curia
    Congregations
    Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
    Missale Romanum
    Four languages from which to choose: [English, French, Italian, Spanish]
    Open each one in a separate window and line up the desired paragraphs.
    English gives you the "GIRM 2000 Including Adaptations for the Dioceses of the United States of America"
    Comparing English versus the others should give you an idea about USA versus the rest of the world.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Well, while I'm still trying to understand the document, what I'm getting at is that 'other suitable liturgical songs' have to be defined and explained more clearly (if it's possible), because the Bishops here might have differnt ideas from the Church Fathers' in Rome.
    Also when the Church gave that 'mysterious no 4 option' , I think it is to include as many people who cannot appreciate the true sacred music yet (also knowing the current state of muscial culture in general), and hopefully local churches will be working toward the best liturgical music as in no1 option to provide music that is most suitable for truly universal and sacred liturgy. This means the church musicians who have good sense of what is sacred (as those excellent musicians in this forum) should work very hard not only for their parishes but also to help other fellow musicians who are not in that level yet, with charity and perseverance. Thanks for all the help and translations.
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