World Youth Day 2008 - Mass Ordinary by George Palmer
  • Pes
    Posts: 623
    World Youth Day 2008 will be held in Sydney. A setting of the Mass Ordinary was commissioned; this year's commission went to George Palmer, whose score is available online. Clearly, this is an ordinary that looks to Gregorian chant as something of a model. Perhaps CMAA forum participants could comment on it.
  • RobertRobert
    Posts: 343
    With respect to Mr. Palmer, my initial reaction is that it shares the defects of most contemporary Mass Ordinaries: too busy, too theatrical, too repetitive, and too lengthy. It tries very hard to encourage congregational singing but I doubt it will succeed in this respect. Would it be so very difficult to have the WYD pilgrims learn, say, the Jubilate Deo ordinary (Kyrie XVI, Gloria VIII, Sanctus XVIII and Agnus XVIII) and sing that instead?
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Color me unimpressed. It is good, it's just not great. I'll use some of the criteria I'd use in reviewing this for my parish's use.

    It's appropriate for worship, I'd say. It's fun without being sing-songy. The melodies hold interest and the accompaniment supports them. I will say it doesn't have an enduring trait to it. The Sanctus is fun, but I'd get tired of it after 6 weeks. And the Gloria... well after singing it twice I'd never want to hear that "triplet-triplet suspension-resolve" intro again.

    Another criteria is if there's any manipulation of the text, and there is: "Christ has died, Christ has died, he has died..." It's not a deal breaker, but I shy away from things like that just to be safe.

    The cantor/congregation model is something I object to as well. It may be a new text, but people will never LEARN it if they're only allowed to sing 15 words or so of it as in the Gloria. Most of the melodies are not difficult, so why not just let the congregation sing it all?

    One of my main issues in reviewing a resource is singability. This mostly passes, but some parts fail. The Memorial Acclamation, for instance: I can't sing an Eb on my knees. Also the 16th notes in the Sanctus really stuck out as unsingable.

    And I also look at how appropriate the movements are for their role in the liturgy. That immediately DQs most Memorial Acclamations and "Great Amen"s. The Canon is no point in the liturgy for big, bombastic music. And that's a shame because I love the music he uses for those sections. But that's just a matter of not utilizing those sections.

    And finally, all that in mind, I ask myself would I use it? Is it worth the trouble of teaching the congregation something new? I'd say no, but only because of the cantor/congregation deal. It is good music, and I could put up with that annoying measure of the Gloria. But I just can't get past the idea of this being lead by a cantor. It doesn't need it. So those are my thoughts.

    I'm curious about how legit it is to use the new Gloria and Sanctus at Mass? Is that an indult for Australia? Or just a falsehood? Anyway, I have a plan to write an easy setting of the Gloria that can use either text (to aid in the transition), so I'll have to copy down that text and get to work...
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Robert, I had the same thought, but let's remember that Sacramentum Caritas was about a year and a half ago, and Summorum Pontificum not even that. I'd say it's too soon to expect the whole world to know Jubilate Deo by that point, although I'd guess there must be millions more already than there was 3 years ago.
  • paul
    Posts: 60
    I don't see this mass knocking Mass of Creation off the throne.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Palmer_(judge) is this the guy who wrote it? Where can we find more of his works? He at least sounds like a good composer, based on this Mass.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Trite and novel. Bad harmonic progressions (jarring) and voice leading is disjointed. I listened to the main movements. K, G and AD. The Gloria intro (triplets) which "cues" in the congregation every time is just too much! If this represents the best the RC church can do with a global event that promotes new sacred music, I think we need a liturgy committee.

    Just sing JD folks! We have soooooo much good music in the storehouse. Don't let it rot there! And besides, I have a lot of theological problems with WYD anyway. But don't get me started on the subject of liturgies for children, teens and then adults.

    _________________ (12 hours later)

    OK... I slept on that music. (It's always a way to get more objectivity), so I will make revisions to my thoughts above here.

    Somewhat trite and novel. (especially the Gloria and the Sanctus) Amateurish harmonic progressions. I listened to four movements, not three. K,G,S and AD. Gloria... definitely too much. I can live with the K and the AD, but don't care for the disjointed parts with Cantor, soloists, etc.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,033
    I'm not sure it's any better or worse than most other settings in English. If one of the determining factors is accessibility, then it seems very difficult to escape the regular harmonic rhythm (i.e. plodding bass line with changes in harmony at each beat) 4-measure phrases, predictable harmonic progressions, etc. What usually results is a rather forgettable march (as in the Gloria) or vague uneasy meandering harmonies (as in the Kyrie). Again, I don't really blame the composer as much as the strictures that a setting in English which includes congregation imposes.

    To me it's something like the constraints on church music written in England during Elizabeth's reign. Composers were expected to write music for which the words were readily understandable - even to the point of Cranmer writing famously "as near as may be, for every syllable a note." Almost all of the music written to this idea is not very memorable; the few pieces that we do remember are the work of no less a genius that Thomas Tallis.

    Sam Schmitt
  • georgepalmer
    Posts: 2
    As the composer of the WYD 2008 Mass I am very interested in the reactions so far posted on this site, mostly negative. Of course I never expected that this work would attract universal approbation. What work ever does? A few comments follow. I hope they will not be taken as defensive, but rather as sharing common concerns about current styles of music for the liturgy.

    The brief to write this Mass (drawn up by a committee of eminent Church musicians) was very specific as to matters of style. In particular, the cantor/congregation model was made mandatory on the ground that most congregations would need the melodic line sung to them first in order to learn by imitation. I don't know if this is always right but that was the brief. Doubtless some parishes are quicker to learn than others so that the cantor/congregation model becomes irksome. Perhaps I made the melodic line rather too easy in many sections so that the cantor's 'tuition' is unnecessary after one or two hearings. If that proves to be the case I myself don't see any problem in dispensing with the cantor where taste dictates and having the congregation sing through it all, as Gavin suggests.

    Some commentators refer to the 'trite' cue-in for the Gloria. I have to say that I do not think this intro is a timeless masterpiece. I had written something I thought was more interesting but the Committee kept repeating that the music had to be simpler because the average parish organist would never cope with anything more difficult than say 2nd grade standard. I don't know if this does justice to most parish organists but this is the advice I followed.

    From the very astute and informed comments which appear on this site (eg from Gavin who describes himself as the music director of a small parish) I suspect that the general standard of musicianship in parishes throughout the US is higher than in Australia and the WYD Mass may therefore prove uncongenial to US parishes. If anyone is interested in having the more 'sophisticated' version of the Gloria I'll be happy to supply it. For that matter, most of the sections were originally more 'sophisticated' both in terms of melodic line, harmony and accompaniment but were simplified (repeatedly).

    Some commentators have remarked that in one or two places the melodic line is too high - the highest note is an Eb. I was fully aware of the range of the average parish choir and the notorious Eb was agonised over and much discussed by and with the Committee. In the end I decided to retain it for two reasons. First, it makes a more interesting (in my view) melodic line. Second, it occurs in a passage in which the congregation is encouraged to sing in joyous exaltation: reaching for this note might strain the tonsils of some (it does mine!) but it will hopefully give everyone a good vocal workout, which encourages full participation in the joyous experience of getting a big lungfull of air and singing together at top volume. Beauty of tone is not always the prime consideration - it's the spiritual exaltation I'm going for.

    One commentator says the Mass is too repetitive. Interestingly I was asked to include more repetitions of the 'refrain' in the Gloria because otherwise the congregation would feel that there was too little for them to sing. It just shows there's no accounting for taste.

    In the end, a composer just has to do his or her best, given the constraints of the 'brief' and then leave the work to fend for itself. Without wishing to give myself a pat on the back, I simply draw attention to the fact that reaction to the Mass in Australia at least has, so far, been favorable and it is already being taken up by many parishes. Commentators on this site might be interested in comments on the Mass on a website called "Coo-ees from the Cloister". As the name of the site implies, those responsible are Australian clergy. Their responses may be an illustration of 'support for the home team' but I hope it is more than that.

    Finally, anyone wishing to know more about my music and my background can go to 'georgepalmer.com.au". The WYD Mass in not the first Mass I have composed. I was commissioned to write a Christmas Mass in 2005. The result, "A Child is Born", scored for soprano and tenor soloists, SATB choir and chamber orchestra, has been recorded commercially by ABC Classics on a cd entitled "Exaltate Dominum" which contains some of my other choral works.

    May I say that I am very grateful for the interest which the commentators on this site have shown in reviewing the Mass and giving me the benefit of their insights and their considerable experience. I have not found one comment which is not helpful to me. All of us share one object: to create something which reflects to the best of human ability the glory of God.

    With my thanks and best wishes to you all

    George Palmer
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    Mr Palmer, thank you so much for contributing here.
    Don't let the comments snow you, the standard of musicianship in US parishes varies widely (wildly?) and is generally quite low.

    Your explanation of the tessitura of the Memorial acclamation is interesting.
    The idea of both generating and expressing exaltation with high notes is certainly valid.
    But current thought among many church musicians is to lower the emotional pitch of the acclamation, ("hushed awe," if you will,) and then raising the rafters with the Amen.
    Can you tell me, was there ANY thought given, (by the committee, since you obviously had to follow their wishes, rather than your own,) to using Latin and Greek rather than English for the Ordinary, in light of the fact that this will be WORLD Youth Day, and in light of teachings on the use of Latin rather than vernacular in virtually all documents to come out of Rome in recent years?

    I haven't examined the Mass that closely, but I gather from comments you have used the pending translation?
    Is that because proximity to Cdl Pell of Vox Clara means that you all know something we don't about the new translation being approved and promulgated before WYD?

    Thank you for any comments or information.

    Geri

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Dear Mr. Palmer:

    Thank you, sincerely, for your post to the CMAA. We totally understand the constraints put upon composers this day and age. You are meeting with no easy requirement, and following very specific dictates and stringent critque from all angles. 'Fishbowl' events are the most difficult to deal with.

    And as Geri has assured you, do not take any of our comments personally. You especially have my ear and prayers, as I too am a RC composer. Be encouraged to continue and always aspire to your highest aim. I know how comments about one's music can be hard to separate from an opinion or critique of oneself.

    Please keep us informed of any developments, and how the work is received and please share your reflections once the liturgy has passed. Congratulations on your achievement.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Mr. Palmer:

    I understand the constraints imposed upon you. And any of my comments were more about taste, although I'd say many other musicians may share them. As regards the typical ability in the US, it's probably no better than Australia. However, those of us involved in church work more seriously tend to be of higher skill than our counterparts who show up on Sunday and play sacro-pop.

    The only issue I'd still complain about is the Eb. I understand and agree with your rationale for including it. However, I'd still point out the timing of it. I do not accept "we can't sing that" complaints from my congregation, since the most popular setting of the Gloria in America uses a high Eb. And yet I don't program anything higher than D for the Offertory hymn because everyone is seated at that point. Sitting and kneeling are both positions very non-conducive to good singing, so I think the music should be written with that in mind.

    THEN AGAIN, you are writing for what I assume is another outdoor Mass? So there may not be room or it may be impractical to kneel... so maybe it does work. Well, it's still fine music and it's not going to change! I'd just suggest other composers (such as Francis) keep such things in mind when writing.

    I hope you'll feel free to contribute on this board often! I don't know that we have any other Aussie contributors, so I'm sure your perspective will be appreciated.
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    I have to say, I'm very encouraged that we have such esteemed leaders in Sacred Music directly participating in these conversations. Mr Palmer, my hat is off to you, and I wish you an absolutely wonderful and blessed WYD.

    I'm just sad that I won't be able to make it myself, having just blown all my money and vacation on a trip to Oz last year. But we'll be sending a large contingent from the parish.
  • georgepalmer
    Posts: 2
    Dear all

    Please be assured that I did not take your comments as personal criticism but as constructive contributions to the important current discussion world-wide on the direction of the liturgy and the use of music in it. It is healthy to have differences of opinion and to be able to express those differences freely and constructively. I sincerely appreciate your comments and good wishes.

    To answer a few questions:

    The text used in the WYD Mass is the new English text now formally approved for use in Australia. This is the first Mass which has used the new text (I was given the text as a 'sneak preview'). The new text has now been released for general use. In fact the WYD Mass was given its 'premiere' at St Mary's Cathedral in Sydney on 29 January and is now being learnt in the parishes. I am not sure about the status of the new text outside Australia.

    The brief for the Mass was very emphatic that Latin was to be used where possible (the retention of the Greek in the Kyrie was also encouraged.) It was recognised that there would be very large numbers of people from non-English speaking countries at WYD and that Latin was a common link. Further, of course, the Church world-wide is encouraging the re-establishment of the Latin Mass as a means of re-connecting the Church with its liturgical, cultural and spiritual heritage. I am very supportive of that move, having been brought up with the Tridentine Mass and having studied Classics in my youth.

    However, it was also recognised that probably to the majority of congregations, certainly in Australia, Latin and the Tridentine Mass are now utterly alien and that the re-introduction of Latin in the liturgy had to be handled gently, otherwise it would meet with resolute rejection. For that reason, I introduced into the Mass only those Latin phrases which were likely to be familiar to most people from Christmas Carols or otherwise - eg "Gloria in excelsis", "miserere nobis", "dona nobis pacem". However, the music of the WYD Mass can easily be accommodated to the whole of the Latin text and, if there is sufficient interest, I will publish the Mass with the text wholly in Latin.

    As to the mood of the Mass and the infamous Eb: the mood I have tried to create is one of spiritual energy and rejoicing - rejoicing in the beauty of this world which is the creation of a loving God. Bearing in mind that it is to be sung by 500,000 young people at a huge outdoor Mass, there was not much room for subtlety and nuance although I have tried to make the music fresh and interesting. It had to be easily memorable and sound good when sung loudly by a vast multitude. So for example, the Sanctus, which I have tried to make an 'anthem', like eg Va pensiero or Land of Hope and Glory. I do not think those works suffer from the fact that large crowds at football matches or Prom Concerts enjoy singing them.

    I thought that there would be sufficient numbers of people who could, when really enthused, reach that Eb to leave it there as a challenge to be met -who said that life was always meant to be easy! It's interesting that the young choir which sings the Mass on the recording which can be downloaded from the WYD website had no trouble at all with the Eb, although they're not professionals.

    Nevertheless, the Mass is also for use every Sunday in Australian parishes so it has to work in that context too. I thought of the Eb as an isolated instance of vocal difficulty which most people would have a go at reaching and if they didn't, well they wouldn't reject the whole of the Mass on that account if they really liked the rest of it. Let's see if that theory holds good!

    Finally, I really do enjoy discussing the work, and music in general, with those like yourselves who combine professional musicianship with a genuine passion for the liturgy and for the quality of the music used in it. I hope very much that I will meet many people like you at the WYD Mass and that I can share in a continuing dialogue about music in the Church.

    Again, my sincere thanks for sharing your thoughts with me and particularly for your very kind and encouraging words.

    With best wishes

    George Palmer
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    "So for example, the Sanctus, which I have tried to make an 'anthem', like eg Va pensiero or Land of Hope and Glory. I do not think those works suffer from the fact that large crowds at football matches or Prom Concerts enjoy singing them."

    Touche! now that I think of it, if crowds at concerts sing Va pensiero, (and I have no reason to think they can't since little old ladies and cracked-voice grandpas do,) that makes a good case for the assertion that congregations should have no trouble with an octave jump in a piece of music, properly motivated.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    I wouldn't worry about the Eb too much since many untrained voices (certainly any child who graduates from our church school) sing an octave below what's written anyway. I just don't understand the logic that repeating text makes something more singable. How is learning 20 notes for "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of power, Lord God of might, Lord God of power and might" (from one infamous setting) easier than the 12 or 13 notes necessary to render the actual text. And what happens when youth who have learned this music then participate in Mass in the event that there is no music. Will they recite "Glory to God in the highest. Sing! glory to God"? How can we convince the publishers to let qualified composers submit well-crafted settings, that there is a demand for them? If only OCP, GIA, and WLP would co-commission an excellent setting of the new English text (verbatim), that could be sung in unison unaccompied, by an SATB choir, or with organ and use it as the primary setting in their worship aids, they would do a tremendous service to liturgical music in the English speaking world.

    And in regarding the so-called "Jubilate Deo" Mass, it's been designated part of the "minimum common repertoire" for all Catholics since the 70's and is often the only Latin or chant based setting found in hymnals and worship aids by a number of different publishers. Shame on any music director who hasn't been able to teach at least the Kyrie Sanctus and Agnus in the past 30 years. Six weeks for one year during Lent should be enough time for any congregation capable enough to sing anything.
  • cape corner
    Posts: 2
    I first heard this setting at the Basilica of St Patrick, Fremantle on Sunday 9th March. It was magnificent, and led by a small choir and organ (Dominic Perissinotto). I'd downloaded the music a few weeks earlier so I was familiar with it. I'm introducing it (Sanctus to Agnus Dei) to my church in country SW Western Australia this weekend March 29 - 30. It is a breathe of fresh air.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    I only had time to give these a quick look, so I'll leave the commentary to my betters. However, my own experience at World Youth Day in Denver (and no, I wasn't a "youth") taught me how difficult it is to write and produce successful music for these monster events. Mostly what I remember is the total disconnect between the music coming over the loudspeakers and the crowd. Perhaps this will be relieved to some extent by the advance release of the music and encouragement of its use among the "close-in" attendees.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    Re-reading my posting, I wish to clarify that I neither wrote nor performed at WYD Denver. I was simply one of the "lost in the crowd."
  • Aristotle EsguerraAristotle Esguerra
    Posts: 1,185
    For those interested, The Australian has a piece on George Palmer and this Mass setting: “Critical Mass”

    My brief commentary, if you care to read it, may be found here.
  • Gilbert
    Posts: 106
    So, is the English text the ICEL translation that will hopefully get approved in the United States eventually? Are there revisions that the United States are making to the texts? I thought I read something about ammendments to the text for the United States.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    It will be interesting to see how many world youths get the opportunity to participate in the Mass. According to press reports the number of visa requests is significantly below the numbers expected. The full story is at http://au.news.yahoo.com/080609/21/1777m.html I find the last line in the article to be amusing. I have to hope it's a typographical error; otherwise the Australian government has *really* gone into economy mode!
  • sean
    Posts: 3
    Dear George Palmer,
    I've come in on this discussion a bit late but I am currently forming a catholic choir orchestra in Perth, W.A., and am very keen to have your mass setting of which I am very fond. I see that I can download the setting but I also require the orchestral accompaniment. Where am I able to access it,

    yours sincerely

    Sean Tobin
  • Andrew Coyne
    Posts: 42
    Yes, I too would be interested in seeing the orchestral, or if that is not available, at least the SATB version. I attended World Youth Day in Sydney and found the music to be very dignified and beautiful! My favorite movements were the Kyrie, Gloria, and Agnus Dei. Sean, you might consider contacting Mr. Palmer at his website, he has information about Missa Benedictus Qui Venit posted there. http://georgepalmer.com.au

    And if you get in touch with him, please let me know what you found out!
Add a Comment