Historic Organs Recorded Historically -
  • Try googling 'Walter Kraft plays the Lubeck Totentanz orgel youtube'

    I somehow 'stumbled' onto this by accident. A real find.

    You can hear and see the famed Totentanz organ at the Marienkirche in Lubeck. This was the organ in the Totentanz chapel (so-called because of its death dance murals) of the church of Franz Tunder and Dietrich Buxtehude - the very church to which the young Bach went to study with Buxtehude. The recording is by Walter Kraft and was made in 1941- a year before the Allied bombing which destroyed much of the XVth and XVIth century pipework. The recording is accompanied by some fascinating photographs and moving pictures of XIXth and early XXth century life in Lubeck. Kraft's performance is interesting in that it shows how Bruhns and Buxtehude were played in the era before the early music revival got into 'full swing', and reflects the lack of modern scholarship of early music performance. The recording lasts for approximately twenty minutes.

    Perhaps some others here have other interesting instruments to tell of?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Very interesting. I am not convinced "modern" scholarship is any more accurate than what was handed down to performers from a long line of teachers. Those teachers representing a line that goes all the way back to the original composers. It is sometimes difficult to accept the theories of a "modern" scholar who wasn't there and never heard the composers - as none of us did. Some of that scholarship can be based on the thinnest of speculations.

    Back in the day, many of those Kraft recordings were available for little more than a song. I know I have some but am not even sure what lurks in my collection.
  • While there is some substance to your observations, Charles, we cannot overlook that fact that it was from a 'long line of teachers' that came people like Virgil Fox who played slaughtered Bach as if he were Brahms and worse. Much romanticism came betwixt Bach the teacher and the 'teachers' of the romantic and subsequent eras. There was anything but a continuum of teaching (such as we do indeed have with regard to Brahms and Chopin) betwixt Bach and us. What we have learnt from the literary and archaeological record has shown late romantic and early XXth century 'Bach' to be the pale warped travesty that it was.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I am leery of comparisons using Fox as an example. A great organist, no doubt, but definitely given to extremes. One can find some romanticism in Bach and others of his time and some of that music can be quite lyrical. An extreme that did appear with those "reformers" was to almost reduce that music to a lifeless, sterile, nearly mathematical formula. That would have been foreign to the composers. I am still waiting to hear from someone who actually heard Bach although I realize that is impossible. What little we do know from his contemporaries doesn't always jive with what some maintain as truth today.
  • So?
    Going so far as to agree with you concerning the aberrations you cite -
    would you, then, lionise the likes of none other than Pierre Cochereau playing Couperin sans ornaments at a dirge-like tempo?
    Such playing even by the finest of XIXth and early XXth century organists was not learnt from any tutorial pedigree reaching back to Bach!
    On the contrary, it is/was the result of a complete rupture from the Bach-baroque tradition.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Pierre Cochereau had his admirers and detractors. I never cared much for his tampering with the ND organ. Listen to earlier recordings and it is easy to conclude it isn't the same instrument Vierne played.

    There could be some merit to criticisms of current organists playing some early works entirely too fast. I can't quote the article these days, but I remember reading comments by one of Bach's sons on his father's slow and majestic organ playing. You would never know that based on some contemporary organists racing through those works. That same son indicated his father's harpsichord playing was quite lively. All the old organs were not masterpieces of design with some being quite clunky and unresponsive.

    "Fast" and "slow" are relative terms especially from the days when no devices existed to measure speed, as in pre-metronome days. Taking the acoustics of the building into account is equally important. I hear many pieces played in acoustically dead American churches with little accommodation given for the building. With some of the earlier music, clarity might be more important than speed.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Woderful video and recording. Yes, the performance practice is not what we would consider authentic today--I would play all of these pieces on Plenum throughout. But I don't think there was a complete rupture in some regards. If one considers how important Bach was to so many composers (Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Moscheles, Czerny, Mendelssohn, et al.), there cannot have been a complete rupture--I personally am of the opinion that if one peals away some of the romantic surface of performances in the late-19th/early-20th century tradition, there is probably a great deal of historical truth, if you will, in these performances.

    About the measurement of time: The second-pendulum has been around for a long time (the Metronome just built on that tradition), and was popular in France to notate the speeds of court dances--American William Billings also gave speeds for his works based on the pendulum.

    The late Jacques van Oortmerssen (+2015) contended that (based on historical sources) Tempo Ordinario would be 60-beats per minutes (e.g. in C [4/4] crotchet = 60); I think this is accurate.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Timing is much more precise with the electronic gadgets available. I remember those old pendulum metronomes that would get slower as the spring wound down. I tend to work on the principle that if it sounds too fast, it probably is.
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I remember those old pendulum metronomes

    But do you remember a weight attached to one meter of string?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    That really is before my time.
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,768
    One meter is close enough, I guess.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Salieri
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    That really is before my time.

    That makes you younger than some of my choir members--to say nothing of the Pierogi Babcie--you are but a mere youth!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    At 71, hardly. Given current technology I would have little reason to actually see or use the string, although I have heard of "string theory." LOL

    On another point, I have wondered how it is possible to hear or record an organ like it sounded in its day. I have observed organ tone sound differently on the same instrument over a 30-40 year time period. Organs age, too, and so does their sound. So it might not be possible to hear an instrument of say, Bach's day the same way he heard it.
  • ...sound differently on the same...
    Indeed, I have been told by organ builders that the tone and speach on some ancient European instruments as we hear them today is influenced by something so innocent as the build up of dust on their languids and mouths.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I am told that even the wind going through metal pipes polishes them and alters the tone. Not to mention the effects of central heat and air on organs. I made a successful case to the pastor on keeping minimum temperatures in the building during winter. He didn't realize it could cost more to let the temps fluctuate wildly.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn