Antiphon question
  • Do the antiphons Vim faciebant, Confundantur et revereantur, and Alieni insurrexerunt in me appear in the Liturgia Horarum anywhere? I’m looking specifically for text in the LH (not just chants that replace antiphons without music) because I need official translations for a project. Thanks!
  • Incardination
    Posts: 618
    Don't know about the Liturgy of the Hours... but they are Tenebrae antiphons for Good Friday, 2nd nocturn. Vim faciebant is antiphon 1; Confundantur et revereantur antiphon 2; Alieni insurrexerunt antiphon 3.

    I've attached the chant for all three.
    Thanked by 1ClemensRomanus
  • joerg
    Posts: 72
    Vim faciebant is the 3rd antiphon of the Hour of Reading of Holy Friday. The full text is "Vim faciebant, qui quaerebant animam meam." The other antiphons are not in the LH.
    Thanked by 1ClemensRomanus
  • Thanks!
  • Well, it that case, does anyone have the antiphon chants for the Office of Readings for Friday and Saturday of Week IV? Thanks!
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 703
    Seems that the antiphons for the Office of Readings aren't all quite ready to be sung...

    Hebdomada IV, Feria VI, Off. lect. (Tempore per annum):
    1 Cogitaberunt impii (OHS 105)
    2 Avertantur retrorsum (OHS 90)
    3 Iustus non conturbabitur (CAO 3551, not in modern chant books)

    Hebdomada IV, Sabbato, Off. lect. (Tempore per annum):
    1 Dominus iudicabit (AM 54)
    2 Attendite, popule meus (not in modern chant books; Études grégoriennes XV (1975), 26 quater)
    3 Sacrificium laudis (not in modern chant books; cf. Liber Vesperalis iuxta ritum sanctae Ecclesiae Mediolanensis (1939), 570)
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 141
    Office of Readings, aka Vigils among monks, is often sung recto-tono in monasteries. That is the case at our abbey, but on big solemnities, major sung responsories are chanted.
  • So I’ve only just discovered that psalms from week IV (since Holy Week is week II) can be used after the 1st reading with its responsory to extend and more approximate the 3 nocturnes (if you add the vigil canticles). My problem is that my Pastor now wants to do it in English, and I can’t find the Gregorian antiphons for the LotH texts since the ICEL translations are of these and not the OCO antiphons. Is there music for the LotH texts for Thursday, Friday, and Saturday of OoR week IV antiphons? Any help would be greatly appreciated!!! Oh, and many thanks to all the help you’ve given already.
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 141
    Where did you get that rubric from? I've done that many times with the Office of Readings throughout the year as there's a rubric in the monastic LOTH that communities compelled to use the 4-week LOTH should at least try to do Vigils (Office of Readings) over a 2-week cycle. Thursdays are an issue though as both weeks II and IV have Ps. 43 as the daily psalm.
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 959
    It’s from Notitiae 76, p. 257. Strictly speaking, it applies only to religious communities, but I think, mutatis mutandis, it could be done by all.
    Thanked by 2OraLabora CHGiffen
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 141
    Thanks. I wonder how they get around Thursdays of weeks II and IV, when both weeks use the same psalm, 43(44)? When I did it this way, for the second nocturne, I would use the omitted imprecatory psalms: 57 and 82 on week II, and 108 on week III. At the moment I'm praying Monastic schema B which is the schema used by the abbey I'm an oblate of.

    In many ways though I prefer the Liturgy of the Hours, mostly because it better respects the traditional placement of certain key psalms, avoiding schema B aberrations such as Ps. 50(51) the second psalm of Saturday Lauds, Ps. 62(63) at Lauds on Monday and the whopper (for me at least), Ps. 109/110 at Vigils, first nocturne on Sundays. But in the LOTH, I always rankled at the "one nocturne" Vigils (Office of Readings). I guess there's no one perfect Divine Office...

    Ora
  • RevAMG
    Posts: 128
    Here are the relevant passages from Notitiae. I would agree with ClemensRomanus that mutatis mutandis such an arrangement could be done by all.

    This was recently (Feb. 2019) discussed on the Breviary and Divine Office Discussion Group on Facebook.

    Attachments:
    Notitiae 76 (September–October 1972), pp. 254–264.
    Notitiae 89 (January 1974), pp. 39–40.
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 141
    I think I'll try it experimentally again. Off the top of my head the issues I can see are Thursdays wk II and IV, and the verses after the psalmody of each Nocturne. LH uses the same one each week other than in OT. So you would repeat the same one at the 2nd nocturne. My monastic books can supply the missing ones I guess.

    Interestingly the General Instruction of the Monastic Liturgy of the Hours includes the mention that for serious reasons a community may use the 4-week Liturgy of the Hours, but that it is recommended to them that the distribute the psalms of Vigils (Office of Readings) over a two week cycle. But without specifying such a schema. Instinctively in the past when I tried this, I put weeks I and III together, and II and IV. As I mentioned above I used the missing imprecatory psalms on Weeks II and IV to avoid repeating psalm 43(44) at the second nocturne.

    My view of Divine Office rubrics has been greatly influenced by the monastic world where there is a LOT more variety than one would think. So I apply the rule "if it's done officially in a monastery somewhere in the world, it is OK for this oblate to do the same"!

    Ora
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 959
    The Thursday dilemma is resolved by using Ps. 33 broken up in 3 sections. The versicles are taken from the corresponding day from which the psalmody is taken. The versicle for the extended vigil is replaced by the Gospel dialogue.
    Thanked by 2OraLabora CHGiffen
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 141
    Ok, Ps. 33 makes it easy, but for the verses, for instance today, Monday II and IV, the verse in LH is the same for both Nocturnes

    V. Paenitemini et credite Evangelio.
    R. Appropinquavit enim regnum Dei.

    Are we to use the same verse twice?

    In the Monastic Office, that verse is for the *second* Nocturne, the one for the first nocturne is

    V. Respice in me, et miserere mei.
    R. Quia uniques et pauper sum ego.

    During Ordinary time you can use the verse from the respective psalmody as they differ from week to week. But it doesn't work for Lent (and Advent, Christmas, Easter seasons) as there is only a one-week cycle of verses. So are we to repeat them?

    Thanks

    Ora
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 959
    In that case, the versicle for the 2nd nocturne is taken from Terce of the same day the psalms are taken from on Monday’s and Thursday’s, Sext on Tuesday’s and Friday’s, and None on Wednesday’s, Saturday’s, and Sunday’s.
    Thanked by 1OraLabora
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 959
    Sorry to bother again, but could someone tell me the antiphons from the new OCO for Hebdomada IV, Feria V, Off. lect. (Tempore per annum)? Thanks!
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 703
    The antiphons for Hebdomada IV, Feria V, Off. lect. (Tempore per annum):

    1. Quanta audivimus (Liber Vesperalis iuxta ritum sanctae Ecclesiae Mediolanensis (1939), 256)
    2. Recordare mei, Domine (CAO 4577; Antiphonarii Cisterciensis pars altera: Horas diurnas pro toto anni tempore complectens (1954), 164)
    3. Exsurge, Domine, non praevaleat (CAO 2824; AM 17)
    Thanked by 1ClemensRomanus
  • joerg
    Posts: 72
    Antiphonarii Cisterciensis pars altera is available online on splendorveritatis.org
    Thanked by 1ClemensRomanus
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 959
    Many thanks!
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 703
    Thanks Joerg, I added a link to page 164.
    Thanked by 1ClemensRomanus
  • joerg
    Posts: 72
    In Oct. of 2015 I have published a list of the ferial antiphons with references in the Cantus DB. Those references are no longer valid, so here's an update:

    HEBDOMADA I


    Dom: CAO3249 (Ps 1, 2);
    CAO4359 (Ps 2, 6);
    CAO5205 (Ps 3, 4.5)

    FII:
    Miserere mihi, Domine, quoniam infirmus sum; sana me, Domine, quoniam
    conturbata sunt ossa mea.
    (Ps 6, 3);
    CAO1875 (Ps 9, 2);
    CAO2824 (Ps 9, 20)

    FIII: "Ut quid, Domine, recessisti longe?" (Ps 9, 22, PM 11);
    CAO3203 (Ex 15, 18);
    CAO5198 (Ps 11, 8)

    FIV: CAO2230 (Ps 17, 2);
    CAO2846 (Ps 29, 11);
    "Retribuit mihi Dominus secundum iustitiam meam." (Ps 17, 21, PM 20)

    FV: CAO2407 (Ps 17, 3);
    CAO3725 (Ps 17, 36);
    CAO5480 (Ps 17, 47)

    FVI: CAO2801 (Ps 34, 1);
    CAO3515 ();
    CAO3616 (Ps 50, 16)

    Sab: CAO4990 (Ps 130, 3);
    CAO2713 (Ps 131, 1);
    CAO3012 (Ps 131, 14)



    HEBDOMADA II


    Dom: CANTUS200849 (Ps 103, 1-2);
    "Domine, Deus meus, magnificatus es vehementer." (Ps 103, 1);
    CAO4433 (Ps 103, 24)

    FII: CAO3300 (Ps 30. 2);
    "Faciem tuam, Domine, illumina super servum tuum." (Ps 118, 135, Udine
    Bibl. Arcivescovile 84, f35);
    CAO2235 (Ps 30, 24)

    FIII: CAO4643 (Ps 36, 5);
    CAO3521 (Ps 36, 25);
    CANTUS204725 (Ps 36, 3)

    FIV: CAO5294 (Ps 38, 2);
    CAO3933 (Ier 17, 17);
    CANTUS? (Ps 51, 11)

    FV: CAO2826 ();
    CAO1884 (Ier 17, 18);
    CAO3735 (Est 14, 12)

    FVI: CAO3859 (Ps 37, 2);
    CAO1883 (Ps 39, 15);
    CANTUS203218 (Ps 37, 22)

    Sab: CANTUS200861 (Ps 135, 1);
    CAO4567 (Ps 135, 1);
    CAO5203 (Ps 76, 15)



    HEBDOMADA III


    Dom: CAO2503 (Ex 15, 2);
    CAO4600 (Ps 144, 13);
    CAO3204 (Ps 144, 21)

    FII: CAO2168 (Ps 49, 1);
    "Immola Deo sacrificium laudis." (Ps 49, 14, PM 124);
    CAO2265 (Ps 74, 5.6)

    FIII: CANTUS201762 (Ps 67, 2);
    "Deus noster, Deus ad salvandum." (Ps 67, 21);
    CAO3230 (Ps 67, 27)

    FIV: CAO2182 (Ps 88, 8);
    CAO2106 (Ps 131, 11);
    CAO4348 (Ps 111, 2)

    FV: CAO4126 (Lam 1, 21);
    CAO1721 (Ps 88, 53);
    "Convertere, Domine, et deprecabilis esto super servos tuos." (Ps 89, 13, PM
    197)

    FVI: CAO5516 (Ps 68, 10);
    "Consolantem me quaesivi, et non inveni; dederunt in escam meam fel, et in
    siti mea potaverunt me aceto." (Ps 68, 21-22, AR [140]);
    CAO4430 (Ps 68, 33)

    Sab: "Confiteantur Domino misericordiae eius." (Ps 106, 8, PM 247);
    CAO2114 (Ps 107, 13);
    "Quis intelleget misericordias Domini?" (Ps 106, 43)



    HEBDOMADA IV


    Dom: CANTUS201364 (Ps 23, 1);
    CAO1701 (Ps 23, 1);
    CAO3389 (Ps 5, 8)

    FII: CAO4432 (Ps 72, 1);
    CAO1687 (Ps 15, 7);
    CAO4306 (Ps 72, 28)

    FIII: CAO1825 (Ps 101, 2);
    CAO4624 (Lc 1, 48);
    CAO3535 (Ps 139, 14)

    FIV: CAO1682 (Ps 103, 1);
    CAO5066 (Lc 1, 50);
    CAO1699 (Ps 102, 21)

    FV: "Quanta audivimus et cognovimus ea, et patres nostri narraverunt nobis!" (Ps 77, 3);
    CAO4577 (Ier 15, 15);
    CAO2824 (Ps 9, 20)

    FVI: CAO1844 (Ps 72, 8);
    CAO1547 (Ps 69, 4);
    CAO3551 (Ps 36, 24)

    Sab: CAO2414 (1 Sam 2, 10);
    CANTUS200405 (Ps 77, 1);
    "Sacrificium laudis honorificabit me." (Ps 49, 23)
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 959
    I had actually bookmarked that post, but all the links were broken. Thank you for reposting and fixing!
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 141
    Wow, I made myself a Nocturnale from the previous OCO, and it worked pretty well, most of what I needed was available in the various Solesmes books, a few I had to improvise, from the Sandhofe Nocturnale for one. But from what I see above, to actually put together the music, in square notation, in a usable form for daily use would be a monk's lifetime project... I'm not sure I see the point of what Rome did. If anything, it certainly wasn't to encourage us to chant the Office of Readings!!!

    I'll stick with my current Nocturnale! It's not perfect, but it's perfectly functional! It took me about a year to assemble, BTW, and that's with stuff already published by Solesmes. It was no small feat in its own right, but the new OCO looks more like someone's PhD thesis of what the Office of Readings music should be like.
    Thanked by 1ClemensRomanus
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 141
    Another question for ClemensRomanus: what the heck psalms am I supposed to use for second nocturnes on feasts and solemnities? A few possibilities come to mind: psalms from one of the Sundays; psalms from the common of saints for feasts of saints (i.e. specific in the first nocturne, generic in the second). Psalms from the Triduum for the feast of the Holy Cross. Those are a few off the top of my head. Of course my instinct is to say that a "feast" is an occasion to celebrate, and celebration for me also means taking it easy, so perhaps no second nocturne on feasts and solemnities? Or perhaps do with the Office of Readings and Lauds in the summer, combine them into an office of Matins (Lauds hymn/OOR psalms/Versicle/OOR readings and responsories/Te Deum/Lauds psalms & rest of Lauds, etc.).

    Or select 3 psalms from the Monastic Office or Liber Responsorialis that aren't in the 1st Nocturne? Inquiring minds would like to know...

    Ora
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,411
    I'm not sure I see the point of what Rome did. If anything, it certainly wasn't to encourage us to chant the Office of Readings!!!


    I think it was all part of their design!
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 959
    Ora, according to Notitiae 89, linked and screenshot posted above, on Solemnities and Feasts the psalms for the 2nd Nocturne are chosen from one of the 4-wk Sunday’s OoR, being careful to avoid repetition. For example, for Christmas Matins one wouldn’t use the psalms from Sunday week I because it also contains psalm 2.
    Thanked by 1OraLabora
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 959
    Speaking of Solemnities, as part of a project for my Pastor, I’m putting together a 3 Noxcturne OoR for Christmas and Epiphany. Which week’s Sunday psalms/antiphons do y’all think would fit best for those? I can’t seem to decide. I’m leaning toward Sunday Wk IV.

    Thanks yet again for all your help!
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 141
    I'll have to think about that one a bit. Christmas rules out Sunday I.

    Thanks for the screenshot, I happen to be fluent in French, it's my mother tongue, so it was doubly appreciated.

    Ora.
  • Decided to go with Wk IV since Psalm 23 is used on Christmas in traditional Benedictine Matins.
    Thanked by 1OraLabora
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 141
    Good plan. I found the Notitiae link for the rest of the series but better yet, I work in a Benedictine monastery library and they have the full set in the library.

    Ora
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 703
    I found the antiphon Attendite for Hebdomada IV, Sabbato, Off. lect. (Tempore per annum):
  • Nice! Thanks!