Tone Deaf
  • ncicero
    Posts: 38
    Out of sheer eagerness (and necessity) to accept new choral singers, I have eschewed any kind of audition process, choosing instead to interview a person briefly about their musical background. A while ago, there was a young man who approached me about wanting to sing in choir, and had been in band in high school. I (wrongly) assumed this meant that he had some basic musical ability, and at least could match pitch. (what I consider the bare minimum for participation) Turns out he's almost completely tone deaf, and seems to be able to match pitch if he's given 3 or 4 chances, but one wonders if it's just a fluke. I'm devastated, as it's definitely noticeable when my otherwise competent choir has one "polluter" hanging out a random 5th to 6th below where he should be. I've gotten charitable, but serious, comments from other choir members who don't appreciate his "contributions."

    Similarly, I recently began a chant schola to sing at our ad orientam Mass on Sunday evenings. You would have thought I learned my lesson, but I accepted anyone who wanted to join. Sure enough, at the first rehearsal, there was a different young man who couldn't match pitch, beyond just not knowing the part.

    So, in your experience, is there any way to correct this problem besides intense one-on-one intervention? I want these people to be able to participate, but they need to know that they have a lot of work to do to train their ears and voices to work in tandem. Any resources you can recommend to work on pitch? If not, is there an easy and charitable way to let them know the problem they struggle with? (I assume people like this really aren't aware of the issue)

    Thanks all!

    Thanked by 1cesarfranck
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,296
    A few things:
    1) I don't know of any solution except "intense one-on-one intervention," as you said.
    2) On the positive side, this can work.
    3) Just be totally honest with them about their deficiencies. e.g. "I want to help you be the best musician you can be, and there are some things we need to work on. You aren't always singing the right note at the right time, and I want to spend some time working with you to make sure your ears and your voice are working together as they should."

    I have found that giving people the *straight dope* right from the get-go helps and they appreciate the honesty and your willingness to work with them in order to improve.
    Thanked by 3cesarfranck JL Earl_Grey
  • JoeM
    Posts: 28
    When singing in choir, there is always a ratio between listening and singing. No one, even the best of singers can sing in tune if they are not listening to the other members and tuning in. I have problem singers listen 99% and sing 1% or just listen until they develop. If they cannot learn to listen, then i am afraid there is no hope for them.
    Thanked by 2cesarfranck PolskaPiano
  • TCJ
    Posts: 966
    I take a similar approach to JoeM, although I make sure that anyone who joins at least can get on or very close to pitch before I let them join. Then I tell them that at times they can only listen, not sing, and I also expect them to work one-on-one with me for awhile. So far I have had two people accept that (and be happy about it) and a bunch of other people agree to it and then never show up.
    Thanked by 3irishtenor cesarfranck CatherineS
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Learned this at the feet of the great Margaret Hawkins: have your singer block ONE ear with a thumb. That done, he/she can hear his own pitch much more clearly; then have him match to the organ. I've used that trick more than a few times, and it works for most.

    If it doesn't work, toss him/her over the choir-loft rail as a warning to your other singers.
    Thanked by 8ncicero Liam Richard Mix Incardination Carol cesarfranck Casavant Organist eft94530
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    I have encountered this question for many years.
    I always have a "voice check" with any singer who wants to join the choir. I don't call it an audition...I am only testing for one thing- whether they can match pitch and have relative pitch, if it is there, even if it is weak it can be strengthened. However, in my experience if the person does not have ability to match pitch, it usually cannot be taught. That's why its important to hear someone before they join the group- it will save much frustration.
    I think that everything else can be taught- tone production, diction, musicality etcetc. But relative pitch us a given or not. My .02.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    One useful test that isn't threatening that I've heard used is for the director to ask someone interested in joining the choir to sing "Happy Birthday to You" starting on several different pitches. The director plays a pitch on the piano/organ and asks the prospective member to start "Happy Birthday to You" on that pitch. Once the song is successfully started and sung on the correct pitch, stop and play a different pitch and ask the person to sing starting on that pitch. Do that three or four times, and I think you can learn enough about whether that person can match pitch and has a sense of relative pitch.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen Liam CatherineS
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    My Country 'Tis of Thee also works for that. All those long E sounds also betray a lot about the voice.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen mmeladirectress
  • Carol
    Posts: 849
    I used to help with the school plays as "music director." I wasn't really qualified, but I was all they had. Each student (grade 5 -8) was allowed to sing any suitable song. Occasionally someone would sing some pop song I had never heard. I would ask them to sing "Happy Birthday to You" when they had finished. A student later told me that the kids said "If Mrs. B asks you to sing 'Happy Birthday' you aren't getting a good part." That octave in the third line really tells you everything you need to know.
    Thanked by 1CatherineS
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Oddly -
    over the years I've had on only two or three occasions a volunteer singer who could not match pitches, but was the most dedicated choir member. Strange, isn't it?
    My solution was to ask him and her to sing very, very softly. Only if his and her neighbours complained did I have to ask the person to resign from the choir.

    We are told that real tone-deafness is extremely rare amongst humans. This may very well be so, but those who are 'challenged' can be taught - which requires great and dedicated patience. But those who are 'challenged' in their ability to sing sometimes seem to gravitate to choirs - though I've had many people respond to me that 'oh, you don't want me in your choir... I can't carry a tune at all'. Would that they all had such self-knowledge and mercy!
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I have had a few who seemed tone deaf, but it was only outside their very narrow range that they couldn't match pitch. Within that limited range they were if not fine, at least adequate. Sometimes it is just a matter of expanding their range with vocal exercises.

    Is it worth the time and trouble to invest in a singer to that degree? Depends on how desperate you are for singers.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,046
    I've been luck in that the the few non-pitch-matchers I've encountered took themselves out before I had to.

    I don't know how to fix that, and I don't have the time to fix it. I'm having a hard enough time just getting people to read and produce a decent sound. In my ideal world, people who have trouble singing in elementary school would get the same level of help that dyslexics and other LD people get.

    A breezy, interesting first-person look at this issue is Tim Falconer's Bad Singer.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Carol
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 891
    This highlights the need for a proper music education at an early age. The longer one waits to learn any skill the harder it is, though not impossible.

    Singers who are apparently tone-deaf or challenged or whatever you want to call it, need to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Some with little help might be able to sing in choir, other will take a lot of remedial work so it comes down to whether or not you have the time to give and if they want to put in the effort.

    There are some online ear-training resources, but most of the people I've worked with don't want to put in that kind of time or effort. Either it clicks after a lesson or two or they give up.

    Another effective audition song is "Row, Row, Row your Boat". Has an octave leap and is short. Can be sung in a few different keys to decide which section to place a singer.
    Thanked by 2Carol CHGiffen
  • jefe
    Posts: 200
    It looks as if Osborn is the only one amongst us who has mostly escaped the 'Pitch Free' singer. I'm thinking it's his imposing persona that whisks the talent-free away from him. And, yes, the few numb-ers that I've had were very loyal and gung ho. I have a couple little tests I use. One is to sing some little ditty in the auditionee's register and have them sing it back to you. This tells tonal memory. Another is to simply ask them to match pitches with you by repeating the note back to you. This tells actual pitch sensitivity and perception. A few times, after working with people who perceived the note, say consistently 10-20 cents flat, I was able to change their pitch paradigm over time. This was especially true of low altos, who go too far, poco a poco between notes when descending to the nether regions. After being stung a few times, I realized facing the problem directly, one on one is the best solution. Once you let someone in your choir, you own them for the duration, warts and all, and there is no convenient exit.
    Thanked by 2Liam Earl_Grey
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