Missa in D (Brevis & Solemnis)
  • SalieriSalieri
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    [Withdrawn]
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  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,209
    Wow, the soprano soloist has a range from A3 to A5 (or is it G5)? And those ornaments in the Benedictus! It would be nice if you could supply sound files, in order to get some idea of the overall sound you are aiming for. Double stops of a 10th or 11th are pretty tricky: in the Qui Sedes, why not have Vln I take the top two notes and Vln II take the bottom two notes of the four notes you have assigned as simultaneous double stops (there are others elsewhere, e.g. in the Christe eleison)? There are some iffy double & triple stops in the Quoniam. The whole note triple stop at the end of the Domini Fili (and in bar 8 of the Kyrie) might sound a little strange if sustained and not at anything approaching forte/fortissimo (is that what you intend?).

    Rule of thumb (fingers? strings?) ... A double stop can only involve two adjacent strings, so (unless one note is an open string), check the stretch necessary for the two notes to be played simultaneously and realize that an interval of a 10th or 11th (or greater) requires very long fingers (fingers one and four will be required to play large interval double stops). For a tripe stop (unless the top or bottom note is on an open string), work from the string for the bottom note up on the three adjacent strings and check for fingerings.

    These observations are from a very quick and rather cursory look at the score ... I've not had access to an instrument (piano/organ/harpsichord/keyboard) on which to give it a fair try. And, as mentioned above, a sound file for such a score would be a big help.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,520
    Thanks for your comments. I will try to upload some sound files.

    I try not to put dynamics into scores when I'm drafting, because the midi interface in the notation software interprets them, and they never seem right, so I wait until the very end. The opening of the Kyrie should be ff. The chords in bar 8 of the Kyrie, and at the end of the Domini Fili should be written as a semibreve on the top note, and crotchets on the bottom note(s).

    I have been thinking about adding a Viola part, to enlarge the string section to a full string quartet, rather than the "Salzburg" string section that I am currently writing for--this may help alleviate so many of the double- and triple-stops.
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  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 1,967
    'Rule of thumb' is more of a cello thing ;-) but otherwise Chuck is right on. In m. 4 of the Gloria beat 4 you can avoid tenths and make things much easier and perhaps more graceful by having f''a'ff''a' in vln I instead of skipping to d'. At mm 11 & 12 of IV Qui tollis, it's almost guaranteed that the violins will confer and swap notes in mm 11 & 12, perhaps without even telling you so to your face.
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  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,209
    About the "Rule of Thumb" being more of a cello thing ... I wish I had caught that pun!! Thanks Richard!!
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  • SalieriSalieri
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    .
  • SalieriSalieri
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    Thanks for your help, but I have decided to stop working on this piece.
  • SalieriSalieri
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    So...

    It's been a year since I first posted this here, then after amending it, decided to pull it. not for any comments made, I must add, but because of reasons of artistic merit. I must disclose that while there are certain bits that I'm quite happy about, I still have doubts within myself about the merits of a XXI century musician attempting to write a liturgical piece in XVIII century style. However, in spite of that, I have returned to this piece on and off over the past year: revising, deleting, re-orchestrating, adding.

    The original orchestration of SATB choir (with colla parte ATB Trombones), SAB soloists, and 2 violins and continuo, has been expanded to include also two Clarinets (in C--possibly changed to A clarinets--I had added Oboes originally), two Bassoons, and Viola(s). A setting of the Credo (Symbolum Nicenum) has been added as an appendix. Also, the title has been changed to 'Missa Solemnis in D'.

    Each section will be posted separately as a PDF and MP3 file. (NB: I have not added dynamics yet, b/c the midi thing tries to interpret them, and it always sounds weird to me.)

    I: Kyrie
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  • SalieriSalieri
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    XI-XII: Agnus Dei & Dona Nobis Pacem
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,209
    Clarinets in A (which have a pleasantly warm tone) are much more preferable than those in C. My own preference would be, however, to use oboes or an oboe & English horn (or even an oboe d'amore), as the double reed sound is a better match with voices.

    Your bass trombone part is more than adequately rendered on a tenor trombone, if not better in the higher register; additionally, I think the lowest note in the bass trombone part is an F#, totally comfortable for a tenor trombone (especially one with a trigger mechanism, which actually allows for going all the down to the pedal B-flat tone) ... that there isn't even one low D in such a part is quite a surprise, since the work is in D. The alto trombone part does not wander very high, either, and could also be played on a tenor, but is okay as an alto part, too.

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  • On style, I agree with Chuck regarding the double reeds and especially the A clarinets, which would be a much better fit for your work. My personal preference would be for A clarinets and oboe over English horn, if this is meant to evoke the 18th century.

    I would group the two highest trombones together on one stave in tenor clef to save space, and consider grouping the bassoon on the B.C. line with tacet indications since it doesn't seem to have much of an independent line.
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  • vansensei
    Posts: 112
    It reminds me more of the classical era, with the amount of vii/?->chord progressions you use. Mozart used them quite frequently.

    However, please modify some of the jumps in the soprano line and soloist parts. No one alive wants to leap from an F#5 to a B3 to a G#5 even with rest. It will sound horrendous in even the most cantabile, trained, world-class voices.

    Other than that, and some other things (primarily instrumental), I hope you show it to more people!
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,520
    Chuck & Schonbergian:

    I will switch to A clarinets. I originally had oboes, but since they often play colla parte, I noticed that they occasionally went too low; it didn't sound right transposing up the octave, and it seemed odd to have a part doubling the alto line to suddenly switch to the soprano line for a couple notes then return.

    I'll keep the bassoons separate from the continuo line: for the sake of layout, I don't want two independent bassoon parts to suddenly appear during the fugues. But I will put the A & T trombones together.

    ---
    Vansensei:

    Regarding the Soprano solo: I will think about some re-writes, particularly for the Christe. During the writing of which, two pieces that kept floating in and out of my mind's ear were the Christe from Mozart's c minor Mass, and Riccardo Broschi's aria 'Qual guerrero in campo armato'. So you say 'no one alive' ... in effect, I didn't write it for anyone alive!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • The offending soprano line seems like it could easily be divided between two soloists in order to preserve the original contour while easing the technical difficulties. My issues with that passage would lie less in the leaps themselves (which have plenty of precedent) but in their extreme range and jumping from the head to middle register of the soprano voice.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,520
    Here is an updated score for the Kyrie. I have not exported an MP3 yet. I changed the A in the 3rd measure of the Christe to E, changing the leap of a 12th to an octave. I also moved the first notes of bars 11, 13, and 15 of the Christe up an octave, changing leaps of a 12th to a 5th. The two leaps of a 10th at letter G are retained. I have added explicit instructions for "portando la voce" at these places.

    (I have also, changed to A Clarinets)
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 1,967
    No one alive wants to leap
    Speaking for myself, I can't listen to Domine Deus without being jealous of the Weber sisters. But people can have such queer ideas about what's singable: one composer said to me "There's a high g-flat, but I tried to make it easy for you [basso profondo] by approaching it gradually by half steps".
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Salieri
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,520
    Updated scores and MP3s:
    Kyrie
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,520
    Gloria
    (Some vocal ornamentation added in the Alto arioso "Domine Fili")
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,520
    Anhang: Symbolum Nicenum
    (I put the two highest trombone on one stave in this score, but I'm not sure that I like the way it looks.)