Easter Vigil: Instead of the Gloria; Te Deum?
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 489
    Any one know of any occurrence where the Te Deum is sung instead of the Gloria at the Easter Vigil? The first half of the service is a vigil, which is an expanded form of the Office of readings, which ends with the Te Deum. I just watched Youtube where it seems to have happened. Te Deum laudamus - Ciebie Boga wysławiamy - Utwór Chóralny
  • Chaswjd
    Posts: 256
    I don’t think that the rubrics would allow the substitution. According to the General Instructions, where morning prayer is celebrated together with mass, the canticle is sung after the communion antiphona. Similarly, you could use the Te Deum as a post-communion hymn.
    Thanked by 3CharlesW CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    To confirm that, the General Instruction on the Liturgy of the Hours says:

    98. Apart from Christmas eve, the combining of Mass with the office of readings is normally excluded, since the Mass already has its own cycle of readings, to be kept distinct from any other. But if by way of exception, it should be necessary to join the two, then immediately after the second reading from the office, with its responsory, the rest is omitted and the Mass begins with the Gloria, if it is called for; otherwise the Mass begins with the opening prayer.

    Thanked by 4M. Jackson Osborn irishtenor CHGiffen eft94530
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Chonak,

    That permits the Office to dove-tail into the Mass, but not the other way around, which is what I understand the OP to have encountered.

    The only situation I can think of in the EF is at Easter, and the '55 rubrics are different from the '62 on this point.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    The arrangement Ralph describes does sound like it would be an attractive thing to do. Does anyone have any thoughts about it on the merits of the practice, apart from the fact that it doesn't seem to be permitted?
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Gloria has occupied its historic place in the mass since the sixth century or so. Why would anyone wish to substitute anything else for it, other than for the sheer novelty of doing so. The Episcopalians have allowed for several canticles or hymns of praise in place of Gloria as of the 1979 BCP, but we are not Episcopalians. I can't think that anyone would do this even if it were rubrical.
    Thanked by 5Joseph Mendes chonak tomjaw mmeladirectress CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    Putting aside the rubrics to consider the question on its own merits: it occurs to me that singing the Gloria at the Easter Vigil may be a liturgical symbol of the perfection of the Mystery of the Incarnation in the Paschal Mystery. FWIW, that would seem more valuable than a tie to the Office at least in communities that don't normally celebrate the Office communally on a daily basis - which would be most places aside from monastic and chapter conventual liturgies....
    Thanked by 2Paul F. Ford CHGiffen
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,076
    If I could put three thank you's on MJO's post, I would.
    The Holy Week liturgy is sublime. in the "EF", on Holy Thursday the Gloria is sung for the last time, with bells ringing throughout it; as the echos fade away, we face the long fall into our Lord's Passion.
    At the Easter Vigil, the Gloria is sung once again, after what seems like a journey of 1000 miles. Again, the bells are rung throughout, and our joy bounds up. It's thrilling (for me, anyway), year after year. No "Te Deum" - or anything else - could touch it.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw eft94530
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 489
    I am aware of the GIRM. But I am thinking there may be an indult for a specific culture. For example: Poland has a history of using vernacular long before VC2 , and alt texts for some ordinaries. I seems interesting.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    I could see adding the Te Deum after the end of the Easter Vigil, in the same way, and for the same reason that the Leonine Prayers were added to the Low Mass. That way, I can accept the solidity of Jackson's position and still give room for this beautiful, liturgical hymn.
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 489
    Here is an Easter vigil service with a Te Deum
    Might not be a substitute for the Gloria but the Eucharistic Easter procession , where the Blessed sacrament is returned to the Tabernacle. Its not in the GIRM but it's in Tradition. I think it was the bells (like Pavlov;s dog) that made me think it was the Gloria.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Te Deum, with its versicles and responses, and its collect of thanksgiving making it sort of a 'mini-office' or ritual, may be sung at any time of rejoicing, including after mass. But it does not, cannot, replace Gloria within mass. I should think that singing it after the Easter Vigil would be anti-climactic.
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 489
    The Te Deum needs to be sung more often.And like the Veni Creator, these are rites or devotions in themselves and are not mere background music to cover some other liturgical action.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn JL CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    I''m very fond of the Te Deum. It's really exciting when all are singing it whilst two thuriblers stand at either end of the altar doing symmetrical Queen Anns, followed by the versicles and responses and the collect that goes with Te Deum. We sing Te Deums at Walsingham right after mass on significant anniversaries in the life of the parish or the Ordinariate, or at other times of thanksgiving or rejoicing. This week is the tenth anniversary of the present church structure; next week (which is our solemnity of the Chair of Peter) is the anniversary of the Ordinariate. Te Deum will be sung right after mass at both.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Ralph Bednarz
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    MJO

    Who is . . . Queen Ann?
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Ha!
    I knew someone would ask about Queen Anns. There must be a proper liturgical name for this - it is when the thuribler swings his thurible in a complete circle from the ground to over his head and back to ground. I do not know how the name Queen Anns got attached to this act. It's just what we have always called it. Queen Anns also will sometimes be done whilst in procession.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    I thought they were named for the Queen Anne rifle salute maneuver.... but not a putative Queen Ann, who sounds very American (well, if she were born in the 1920s).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IomFSmDIXI
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • WGS
    Posts: 297
    The expression "Queen Ann(e)s" is new to me, but more often I have heard this maneuver referred to as "360s".
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Sounds more like the following:

    “Back, a few years ago, when Benny Dawkins was learning the Doubly Inverted Reverse Swan, the trick that won him third place in the International Thurifer Invitational in London a few years back, he was perfecting the maneuver at St. Barnabas when, one Sunday morning, he happened to catch poor Iona Hoskins behind the ear with the pot, knock her out cold and catch her wig on fire.”
    ― Mark Schweizer, The Soprano Wore Falsettos
    Thanked by 2WGS CHGiffen
  • JL
    Posts: 171
    symmetrical Queen Anns


    In my neck of the woods we know them as Ambrosian 360s.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 774
    The traditional interpolation of Office and Mass would make an interesting study. The Requiem Mass is surrounded by Lauds, with the opening psalmody as the body is met at the door, and the Benedictus sung graveside.

    The Vigil of Easter traditionally followed None in the morning, after which came an abbreviated Vespers. Now that we've moved the Vigil to night, we make this an abbreviated Lauds instead, singing the Benedictus rather than the Magnificat, which means Matins of Easter happens... when? Not before the Vigil, not without impinging on Matins of Holy Saturday, usually sung as Tenebrae sometime during the day.

    I don't think you can say the Vigil Mass readings stand in the place of Easter Matins. That's certainly not the traditional understanding. But even if you do make that argument, it makes more sense to sing the Te Deum after the Vigil Mass is done, rather than replacing the Gloria. Of course, that messes with the idea that Easter Day offices are (relatively) simple, presumably as a relief from Holy Week, and to let us get to our Easter lamb.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Richard,

    You make an excellent case for putting the Vigil back in the morning.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • RevAMG
    Posts: 162
    When I was a seminarian, we always called a "Queen Ann" an "Anglican Loop".
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • Chaswjd
    Posts: 256
    I have to disagree with Richard R. The General Instruction on the Liturgy of the Hours is explicit: “212. The Easter Vigil takes the place of the office of readings.“. It was for that reason that I suggested singing the Te Deum after communion at the Vigil. It follows the pattern of combining a hour with mass. It follows the precedent of how the vigil was celebrated both pre-Pius XII and between his reforms and those of the Council, Finally it is in keeping with the GIRN which gives as an option having the congregation sing a canticle or hymn of praise following communion.
    Thanked by 3chonak Richard R. CHGiffen
  • GregoriusGregorius
    Posts: 18
    In Poland the Te Deum is sung as part of the Eucharistic Easter procession. It either occurs at the end of the Easter Vigil or before the first Mass on Easter Sunday.

    In the pre-conciliar Kancjonały it instructs that when the Eucharistic procession, which occurs before the first Mass on Easter Sunday re-enters the church the Te Deum is sung.
    Thanked by 4M. Jackson Osborn chonak tomjaw CHGiffen
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,372
    "The Easter Vigil takes the place of the Office of Readings." Repeated in the Missal preamble to the Easter Vigil, and before the instructions in The Divine Office (English, = US LOTH) for those who cannot attend the Vigil, which include saying/singing the Te Deum.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Gregorius,

    I first read your first sentence as "In Portland...."
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Portland? Now that is a horse of a different color. ;-)
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 774
    Thanks, Chaswjd. If that is the case, then I would still suggest the Te Deum be sung following Mass rather than during it. I like the idea of the Office surrounding Mass, rather than impinging on it. The rare times I have heard the Te Deum sung during Mass (communion), I have felt it sort of overwhelms the Eucharistic liturgy. Its nature and history make it almost a liturgical moment unto itself, like a sacramental.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 489
    M. Jackson Osborn: Someday I hope to visit your church. I am sure the music and liturgy are beautiful.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Ralph -

    They are!
    I hope that you get to visit us sometime.

    I and a friend of mine often quip something on the order of 'isn't it wonderful, the sort of things we have to complain about at Walsingham'.
    Things like singing credo III rather than credo I, the sole Sarum creed.
    Or that everyone in our sanctuary isn't vested in apparalled albs and amices in good Sarum fashion.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    The next best thing to being there, I suppose, is the Google Street View display that extends all the way into the building.
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