Sacred Anthem
  • Billiesue
    Posts: 9
    I went to a church yesterday and they were singingn"Were You There". When is this anthem approiate to be used. My liturgical guides don't have it recommended until Palm Sunday at the earliest.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    well, some people on this forum would have you tarred and feathered for using it at all, since it is neither in Latin, nor a chant, but mainly because it has a copyright of 1982.

    However, since it can be sung reverently and there is nothing heretical in the text, I would agree that it probably wouldn't be appropriate to use before Palm Sunday. Lent is more focused on things like repentance until Palm Sunday, then that's when we first start to look deeply at the Passion during Mass.

    It deals very nicely with the actual emotions that normal people (not those looking down from the choir loft) may experience during such an event as the Veneration of the Cross.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    When? Never, in my book.

    OK, now that I've gotten the vinegar out, and despite the fact that in my last job we sang it on Good Friday (ducks to avoid the tomatoes, etc.), I don't believe it should be sung during a liturgical celebration be it Mass or Office. The reason is because it reduces the experience of the Saving Work of Christ to an historic phenomenon and laces it with a kind of mawkish sentimentality that reduces the Sacrifce of Christ on the Cross to an emotional, experiential reality.

    I'm certainly no theologian, but the text really doesn't say much about what we believe or why we believe it. It's kind of like eating too much bread before a wonderful meal, it fills up your stomach but doesn't provide much nutrition or gustatorial satisfaction.
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 774
    I get moderately amused/annoyed at overly profound theological critiques of sentimental Christian hymns. For many of us, if not most of us, the sentiments, properly speaking, are the first, most viable entryway for transforming grace. And isn't that what Passiontide is all about?

    In the case of "Were You There", the author's theology/ecclesiology/what-have-you may not pass Thomistic muster, nor add much to the Church's great history of apologetics. But, heaven's sake gang, are we too high falutin to stand trembling (even "tremblin' ") before the unfathomable mystery of the cross? the tomb? the empty tomb?

    No, none of us was "there". But through the sacramental mysteries, we can be "there" as surely as those who were. That seems like very fine ecclesiology to my simple mind... and sentiments.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Richard, I sang and played lots of emotional, sad and pretty music in the past. But those sentimental music doesn't lift you up spiritually. Our faith is not based on feelings, but objective truths. Our Pope also warned about how the sacred music should be more spiritual than emotional, then the feeling will be in the right place. It doens't work the other way around. The emotional experience is also very temporal, cannot last very long. I really don't think this song is liturgical. I personally can like this song. But we are not talking about the people who like the song or who wrote the song, but the song itself. This might be a good song to use for a movie on "Jesus Passion' or a play or something that I could go watch and cry my heart out.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    Sentimental music *does* lift *some* people spiritually.
    Many people have come to a fuller spiritual experience through an initial encounter with emotional or "pretty" music, and it was only after this experience that they were able to appreciate the deeper spirituality that our Church has to offer. (myself included.)
    I know that some would argue that everyone can be spiritually uplifted through chant and latin, but I strongly disagree, since I know there are people who have such emotional baggage that prevents them from hearing such things without rolling their eyes in disgust, as they worry about going back to the "bad old days" or whatever.
    Why can't we at least *try* to please them by occasionally incorporating a song which is at least not in theological error, and can be sung in a reverent manner? Yes of course I agree there is no deep theology in it, but it is not incorrect to think about myself standing at the foot of the cross!
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    So the music that is part of the celebration of the Holy Mass should not offend people with emotional baggage?

    Then why should we be subjected to music at Mass that is theologically flawed and musically juvenile? Why should the Emotional Baggies get what THEY WANT.

    And the text....let me ask you (sarcasm alert) this, "Were you there when I graduated from high school?" The song is beautiful, a favorite of mine though you may not believe it from what I am saying, but miacoyne is correct. It belongs in a prayer service or anything else but not at Mass.

    We sang it last week, we sing it Good Friday because it is a tradition. Should it be sung at a liturgy? No.

    When we concentrate on giving the people what THEY WANT we have totally lost focus as liturgical musicians.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Maybe it would be suitable for a parish observance of the Stations of the Cross. Or is it permissible for a choir to sing before the start of the Easter Vigil?

    By the way, it's a good bit older than 1982. James Weldon Johnson collected it in his Second Book of Negro Spirituals in 1926, with these words:


    Were you there when they crucified my Lord?
    Were you there when they crucified my Lord?
    Oh! Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble
    Were you there when they crucified my Lord?

    Were you there when they nailed him to the tree…

    Were you there when they pierced him in the side...

    Were you there when the sun refused to shine…

    Were you there when they laid him in the tomb…


    If the version you have includes a resurrection verse ("when they rolled the stone away"), that's probably a later addition and not really appropriate during Lent.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Richard's comment is beautiful. Thank you, Richard.

    This is evidence that there's no such thing as objective judgment on liturgical music. Some here say it shouldn't be used. Others among us say it can be, and has artistic merit. Most of us are well-trained and all of us have a desire to admit nothing unworthy into the liturgy. Do what you feel is right for your own parish, and let God hold you accountable. We are accountable to Him, not to some anonymous weirdos (that describes me best of all) on the internet.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    as a famous writer once said..."brick by brick..."
    we're not going to change the world (and the things that our congregations expect to hear) in one day, and so realistically some of us *must* incorporate possibly questionable songs occasionally into the liturgy as we attempt to lead our congregations to greener pastures...
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    For myself, I think the small amount of actual text casts into question just how much it might offend against liturgical prudence.

    I’m planning it, but giving it a less privileged place relative to authentic liturgical texts like Crucem tuam, the Reproaches, Crux fidelis, Vexilla regis, Stabat mater, etc.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I pick my battles carefully and wisely. "Were You There" is ingrained in my parish for Good Friday. I can live with it once a year. However, I did throw out "The Old Rugged Cross" when I took the job in 2001.

    "On a hill, far away,
    Stood an old Chevrolet..."

    I sometimes think those words instead, in my more wicked moments. I don't think it's possible to have everything at once. I played/directed for a confirmation mass yesterday evening which contained several Latin pieces, along with some other very good music. The reactions from the congregation and the bishop were favorable. We will succeed, as the old saw goes, "step by step, inch by inch..."
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,033
    "This is evidence that there's no such thing as objective judgment on liturgical music."

    Please explain.

    Sam Schmitt
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Brick-by -brick is good. Probably it prevents a disaster. And all the musicians know their parish situation the best. I just wanted to mention that I learned the difference between the "sacred music' and 'sentimental music' from this forum, and the liturgy is not about our emotion. I'm very thankful for that. It's the simple truth, but we can easily forget; the focus of the liturgy is on whom? And the Sacraments are being celebrated as if they are just human activities not as works of God in many local parishes. I 'tremble,' not because of my emtional baggage, but because I experienced the sacredness of the altar and the miracle of almighty God who is coming to me with His infinite love at the mass, and the sacred music truly leads us to that perfect truth, not to the half of the truth. I truly don't hear that kind of 'tremble' in this song.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    "Copyright", especially in Church music, is really a 20th century thing. So you wouldn't expect to see any such dated evidence in historically Negro Spirituals. It seems that both "Were Your There?" and "Michael Rowed the Boat Ashore" originated right here in South Carolina. I'll see if I need permission to reprint the article in our Parish quarterly newsletter for the Forum.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Friends,

    It is difficult to imagine, for me, that a song can equally fulfill the requirements of the genre of Spiritual and also fulfill the requirements of the genre of music appropriate at Mass.

    It must be one or the other.

    Either it is a motorcycle or a truck. They are different. One has certain advantages, and the other does too. But don't blame a motorcycle for being a motorcycle, or a truck for being a truck.

    The biggest problem with the song, for me, is the STYLE.

    With regards to whether it is "emotional," my emotions are deeply stirred by all kinds of music. My emotions are also deeply stirred when I hear CRUX FIDELIS, or TAMTUM ERGO, or VENI CREATOR SPIRITUS.

    I hate it when people pretend that chant is not emotional. It is. But it is not gushy. It is dignified.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Let me add, ADOREMUS IN AETERNUM to Jeff's list...and DOMINUS DIXIT AD ME.

    Incidentally, I was informed that Veni Creator Spiritus is the same as Veni Sancti Spiritus and may be sung in place of VSS on Pentecost.

    It's been a hard week already.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    VCS = VSS? That's news to me. At our recent Episcopal Ordination, both were sung - VCS by all, VSS by choir only. One is an Office Hymn the other one of precious few official Sequences left to us by Rome - out of the once 5,000 such Sequences! Of course, in its new form, VSS is no longer linked to the Alleluia (Gospel) Verse, and the concluding "Alleluia" after the Sequence "Amen" seems to be suppressed as well. I guess that makes all Sequences equivalent to Office Hymns, and everything is now interchangeable?

    IMO this is just one more indication of the break in liturgical continuity, although a small one. The Sequences evolved out of tropes to the Alleluia Verses, the last of the Propers to be included in the Mass. I guess it all got out of hand - too many Sequences, and some straying a bit too far from their Scriptural references - so the vast majority of them were relegated to the dust-bin of history. Luckily, some survived as stand-alone hymns. The rest can be found, at least their texts, in "Analecta Hymnica". Maybe it's time for a rediscovery.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    It's news to me too, because one of my favorites, the Blessed Notker Balbulus, wrote the first Sequence Hymn, which IS Veni Sancti.

    During our recent meeting I was told that we could sing VCS because it is the same as VSS, which it isn't but they don't care.

    It's like my friend who was at a "liturgy committee" meeting. A lady appointed herself to choose a theme for each Mass. Friend pointed out that there already was a theme, the Entrance Song.

    "No, WE WANT TO HAVE OUR OWN THEME."

    It's liturgy in the muddy, smelly trenches.
  • janetgorbitzjanetgorbitz
    Posts: 964
    so where was the pastor during all of this wallowing in the muddy smelly trenches?
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    My biggest problem with the text is the idea that someone else crucified Jesus. This gets a little too close to medieval anti-Jewish thought for me. WE crucified the Lord and were saved as a result. That's why we kneel in front of the Blessed Sacrament.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    I think that he was praying for me. And got a headache.
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