Diocese of Marquette Hymnal
  • toddevoss
    Posts: 162
    Per a recent pastoral letter at the diocese website, the hymnal is now available. Oddly, there are no images, excerpts, table of contents, etc that I can find. Has anyone seen it?
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,023
    The cathedral bulletin from November said they had arrived at that point. This is truly odd, an underpublished flagship effort.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,085
    One possible reason for the lack of publicity, information about and samples from the hymnal is that the publishers whose music appears in the hymnal imposed a condition for the inclusion of their copyrighted music that the hymnal is only approved and publishable and usable within the territorial limits of the Diocese of Marquette. It may not lawfully be used outside the diocese's boundaries, maybe not even sold outside the diocese.

    When I inquired in the fall about the hymnal and its contents, I was told that I could not be provided with that information because the hymnal hadn't been released yet. And to my inquiry about whether the hymnal could be used outside the diocese, I was told that it could not for the reason stated above.

    So that diocesan hymnal is not going to be a national competitor with other hymnals due to the copyright and publishing restrictions imposed on it.
    Thanked by 6CharlesW Liam NihilNominis CHGiffen toddevoss BruceL
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,023
    I'd still love an index and a page scan of a PD text and tune, just for cf. purposes.
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,023
    There is this (just an article, but it gives some indications):

    http://www.upcatholic.org/app.php?RelId=6.9.3.0.5&BookCode=20180504&PageLabel=6&Sgt=11&lang=enu
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen toddevoss
  • Elmar
    Posts: 506
    It may not lawfully be used outside the diocese's boundaries, maybe not even sold outside the diocese
    Seriously? Even selling for private use may be restricted within the US? I mean, this is not Cuba or Russia or Mexico ... and as a next step, are they going to build walls between dioceses?
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Elmar, my suspicion is that the restrictions GREATLY reduced the cost-of-hymns to the Diocese. So yes, they may restrict, but the Diocese agreed.

    Walls work!!
    Thanked by 3CharlesW toddevoss Elmar
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,085
    I think the point is the hymnal may not be sold for private use. It is only authorized for official use by the Diocese of Marquette: its parishes, schools, and other institutions within the boundaries and under the jurisdiction of the diocese. Essentially the diocese is the publisher of the hymnal solely for its own corporate use.

    That's how OCP and GIA prevented the diocese's hymnal from competing with their own offerings while containing some of their most popular music (I assume, since I haven't seen the contents). If the diocesan hymnal had only the "best" (cough, cough, COUGH) of both OCP's and GIA's "greatest hits" (cough, cough), avoiding their worst junk, but could have been used outside the diocese, it would have had the potential of being a new nationally-used hymnal that would have competed with Worship, Gather, Breaking Bread and the Music Issue. Of course OCP and GIA wanted to avoid that.

    Can such a publishing/copyright arrangement be made in the U.S.? Apparently so.
    Thanked by 2toddevoss Elmar
  • stulte
    Posts: 355
    I think the point is the hymnal may not be sold for private use. It is only authorized for official use by the Diocese of Marquette: its parishes, schools, and other institutions within the boundaries and under the jurisdiction of the diocese. Essentially the diocese is the publisher of the hymnal solely for its own corporate use.

    Where's a young Mozart when you need him?
    Thanked by 1Schönbergian
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 537
    It costs less to license copyrighted works for a limited distribution than for general sale. I've licensed copyrighted works for the exclusive use of parishes in my diocese, and it was a big deal that I never share the work online, or make it available for sale, etc...

    Licenses for general sale also might require that a royalty be paid beyond any fees associated with the initial license itself. While publishers are obliged to issue mechanical licenses, and there's a fixed statutory rate for those licenses, I don't believe they are obliged to license their works to "competitors," or they might choose to charge a higher rate.

    Among larger publishers, it's in their interest to license at a fair rate to others so that they can also receive fair rates for the works of other publishers that they might want to use. I would imagine that someone coming from nowhere and wanting to compete with you might not get favorable rates.
    Thanked by 3toddevoss Elmar BruceL
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I would imagine that someone coming from nowhere and wanting to compete with you might not get favorable rates.


    Quote of the year.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    .
  • Elmar
    Posts: 506
    I think the point is the hymnal may not be sold for private use. It is only authorized for official use [...] within the boundaries and under the jurisdiction of the diocese. Essentially the diocese is the publisher of the hymnal solely for its own corporate use.

    This makes sense to me, but I wonder if that would work for an entire diocese - at least here in Europe (America may be different) where composers/publishers have no way of restricting public performance of their music as long as you pay the legal fee ... throug a central national organisation. (Sounds like communism, doesn't it?)
    Our dioceses pay a yearly lump sum for performing any music during all public services. Sheet music is of course a different story; so at worst, we have to sing/play from memory.

    If, e.g., the German "Gotteslob" was not for sale to individuals, and I wanted to have one for private use here in the Netherlands? I could simply take one from the pews of a German church (and surely put some money in the collection) ...
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • MusicaEtCervisiae
    Posts: 7
    I question the advantage (or pehaps, the wisdom) of a top-down hymnal. Especially seeing that it'll still have the same banal things that it seemed they were trying to avoid!
    Thanked by 2CharlesW rich_enough
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Looks like it includes some of the "ol' favorites" from the '70s and '80s - one wonders why put together a special hymnal when it has just about what every other hymnal has already.


    I don't know those folks or their intentions. But 25 years of government service taught me that giving the appearance of change while changing little is a typical trick to throw critics and/or superiors off. True in that diocese? Someone closer will have to comment.
    Thanked by 5CHGiffen MusicaEtCervisiae Salieri Carol Elmar
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I don't know those folks or their intentions. But 25 years of government service taught me that giving the appearance of change while changing little is a typical trick to throw critics and/or superiors off. True in that diocese? Someone closer will have to comment.

    It could be part of a Master Plan:

    Stage One: Remove all parishes from their usual Hymnal(s), etc. to the Diocesan Hymnal. Include some not-so-great things to appease the critics.
    Stage Two: 2nd Edition of Diocesan Hymnal, removing much refuse.
    Stage Three: 3rd Edition of Diocesan Hymnal, leaving only SATB-style Hymns.

    But, then again, that might be giving them too much credit. It could be that it is simply the product of a "diverse committee" who tried to include everything to keep everyone happy, and might well have turned out different if +Sample had remained in Marquette to see the project through.

    Who knows?
    Thanked by 4CharlesW CHGiffen rich_enough mattebery
  • petrus_simplex
    Posts: 72
    I have a copy of the MQT hymnal here, as it was gifted to our pastor by Bp. Doerfler. It is really quite nicely put together, and in my opinion, a very usable hymnal. There is a token selection of "fluff" (e.g. On Eagle's Wings), and I believe the goal of which was to eliminate outright mutiny among the more progressive faction up there.

    Salieri - While it would be interesting to contemplate a "master plan", I don't think that this is the scenario in Marquette. From what I hear, they simply wanted a hymnal that suited their needs better than what they could currently find in print.
    Thanked by 3MarkB canadash CHGiffen
  • toddevoss
    Posts: 162
    Bump
    I’m not sure why I missed it but in January of 2019, the Bishop published an updated instruction called Let us go to the altar of God. Here is the link: https://www.dioceseofmarquette.org/images/files/Bishop/letusgotothealtarofgod.pdf

    Interestingly it gives these guidelines first prohibiting the use of any other hymnal, but more importantly, guidelines for using materials not contained in the diocesan hymnal:

    "The following directives are also provided to enhance Sacred Music in the Diocese of Marquette.
    • The newly published Hymnal of the Diocese of Marquette must be used beginning the
    Second Sunday in Ordinary Time, the weekend of January 19 and 20, 2019. As of this
    date, no other hymnal may be used.

    • Permission from the Diocesan Bishop is required to utilize Sacred Music for congregational singing that is not included in the Hymnal of the Diocese of Marquette.
    All requests must be submitted through the Sacred Music Request Jotform. Please allow at least one month for a response.

    • Permission of the Diocesan Bishop is not required for the use of Mass settings and musical settings for the psalms that are not found in the hymnal. All musical settings for the psalms and the Mass are to use the officially approved liturgical texts.

    • Permission of the Diocesan Bishop is not required for choral music, preludes, postludes and instrumental music. Pastors are enjoined to take great care to ensure the doctrinal integrity of the choral music, preludes and postludes used in their parishes. A doctrinal resource to assist the pastors will be provided. Moreover, they are to take great care that instrumental music befits the dignity of the worship of God."

    I understand the distinction regarding mass settings vs hymns; hymns could have very troublesome text and so need permission while mass settings only must use approved text and, in that sense, don’t need permission. Still it is a shame that you will have some parishes use as one example, Dan Schutte’s “Mass of Christ the Savior” and others, for example , the Roman Missal ICEL Chant. The music itself “says” something. It seems to defeat at least one purpose of Bishop Sample’s original vision.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    Psh, Schutte’s My Little Pony Mass is nothing compared to Bolduc’s Mass of St Ann or the updated Mass of a Joyful Heart! Those are the settings that jump out to me as problematic when deciding not to require approval for settings of the Ordinary.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093

    "• Permission of the Diocesan Bishop is not required for the use of Mass settings and musical settings for the psalms that are not found in the hymnal. All musical settings for the psalms and the Mass are to use the officially approved liturgical texts.

    • Permission of the Diocesan Bishop is not required for choral music, preludes, postludes and instrumental music. Pastors are enjoined to take great care to ensure the doctrinal integrity of the choral music, preludes and postludes used in their parishes. A doctrinal resource to assist the pastors will be provided. Moreover, they are to take great care that instrumental music befits the dignity of the worship of God." "

    It's called triage.
  • toddevoss
    Posts: 162
    petrus_simplex- You had access to a copy of the hymnal. Wonder if you could take another peek and let us know what Mass Settings are provided. I am guessing similar to St. Michael's in approach.
  • toddevoss
    Posts: 162
    Irish Tenor - I agree about Bolduc's Mass of St. Anne. Don't know the other one.
  • tandrews
    Posts: 174
    I have a sample copy that was given to me from ILP along with all their other publications. Here's the Mass setting list:

    ICEL chant Mass
    Missa Jubilate Deo
    Mass of St. Francis (Duckworth)
    Missa Simplex
    Mass in Honor of St. Cecilia (Fitzgerald)
    Mass for Christian Unity
    Missa de Sancta Maria Magdalena (Willan)

    Hope this helps!
    Thanked by 2toddevoss petrus_simplex
  • Joseph Michael
    Posts: 258
    I also have a copy. When thumbing through it, I thought "It looks very similar to the Credo Hymnal". And then, I saw that the Marquette Hymnal is also published by ILP.

    The two hymnals are about 90% the same as regards the choice of hymns. Nice typeset and paper. Both hymnals use traditional texts to hymns.
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    Probably best that the list of Ordinaries is not constrained - look at how well that worked with the well-meaning authorities up in Canada following MR3.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,085
    .
  • Joseph Michael
    Posts: 258
    The Marquette Hymnal, I believe,encouraged input from the diocese. I would say that the hymnology of Credo and the MH are about 80% (VERY) traditional and 20% contemporary. The MH has more Gather Book contemporary content than Credo. The contemporary music in Credo has some GIA, OPS, and a lot of ILP. The Credo hymnal has a Psalter; the MH has an option of Sunday readings (which looks very much like GIA). Some of the mass setting offerings are different. But, considering the hymns only, the two books are very similar. And the printing and appearance are similar.
    Thanked by 1mattebery
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,890
    From what I gather, this concept of the Marquette hymnal will be spreading around dioceses. I know, for instance, that my diocese has already entertained discussions about doing the same thing (based on the Marquette hymnal) but issued under the name of our own diocese. In fact, the copy of the Marquette hymnal that was given to my pastor during those discussions was passed on to me. I asked my pastor if I could be on the council that would discuss hymn choices but he told me it was already settled. I haven't heard back about whether or not this will actually come to fruition.

    I think there is still quite a bit of dribble in it that I wouldn't schedule (Prayer of St. Francis, One Bread, One Body, Jesus Come to Us (Haas), Lord, you have come to the seashore, etc.). Hymns start on pg 108 and end on 550. The nice thing is it also includes the lectionary in the second half and the typesetting is nicely done throughout. Lots of Proulx psalms. I wish they would just put the text of the refrain rather than music. I don't have an issue with providing the psalm settings in a little appendix but it's always awkward, IMHO, when you choose another setting from what's printed. Confuses people.
    Thanked by 2Joseph Michael Carol
  • petrus_simplex
    Posts: 72
    Thanks @tandrews for posing the list of settings! By the way, we will be receiving the new ILP Credo hymnals soon and while there is some overlap of the Mass settings, the list does differ a bit. (In other words, the MQT Hymnal is not simply the Credo with a different cover.)

    I recently talked to a priest in the UP. While he and his own congregation(s) like the new hymnal, he said that there are more progressive parishes in "open dissent" over its use. I heard elsewhere that the good bishop had expected as much when the decision was made to mandate its use.

    I am in favor of the concept of a universal hymnal for our diocese, but I suspect that no one with influence would support that idea. I find it ridiculous that parishioners from a church just a half-mile away should be completely unfamiliar with the Mass settings that we use here (but it is quite common experience in this area).
    Thanked by 1tandrews
  • Joseph Michael
    Posts: 258
    Yes, the two hymnals differ. But, when it comes to traditional hymnody, the bulk of the book, they are very similar. I am in total agreement with ServiumScores about the Psalms. I do not own a copy, but this summer, saw the new hymnal made for the Archdiocese of Toronto. A fabulous book. The Psalm responses are all chant-like and, I assume, where written explicitly for the hymnal.
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    The Toronto hymnal's gradual are updates of older settings and compiled, rather than composed, for its publication.

    Unfortunately, because of the (far weaker) impending Canadian national hymnal, the Archdiocese of Toronto is not promoting their own resource.
    Thanked by 1Joseph Michael
  • toddevoss
    Posts: 162
    In the Credo Hymnal - The Mass settings in addition to the Roman Missal ICEL setting are:
    Mass of Saint Francis (Duckworth)
    Mass of Saint Augustine
    Mass of Wondrous Love
    Missa Jubilate Deo
    Missa de Angelis (VIII)
    Missa Simplex
    Mass for Christian Unity
  • MichaelDickson
    Posts: 419
    and as a next step, are they going to build walls between dioceses?


    Yes, and the Diocese of Green Bay is gonna pay for it.
    Thanked by 4Schönbergian Carol petrus_simplex CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    A wall of cheese, no doubt: https://mk0mexiconewsdam2uje.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/cheese.jpg
    Thanked by 3Carol MichaelDickson CHGiffen
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    dioceses?

    surely you mean the worshipping people of God?

    Mind you, the point you raise about walls is precisely why Amoris Laetitia caused such a mess, and why the Amazon Synod needs to be sent packing, but I'm trying to avoid a full-throated rant here, so I'll stop.
  • petrus_simplex
    Posts: 72
    Yes, and the Diocese of Green Bay is gonna pay for it.


    Heck no! We're hoping that we will get annexed into the Marquette Diocese. I heard that they have quite a few more seminarians than we do, so it's probably just a matter of time.

    And cheese should bring people together, not divide. Amoris Caseus... the next papal document.
    Thanked by 1MichaelDickson
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Blest be the cheese that binds!
    Thanked by 2Liam MichaelDickson
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