Ideal Choir Loft design
  • Hello everyone,

    I work for a wonderful pastor who is a true Son of the Church. He is the Director of Vocations for our Diocese as well as Pastor for two Parish Churches (for one of which I am the music director). He has successfully run a capital campaign to build and start a Parochial School (our school is in its 9th year) and has currently set his sights for a new capital campaign on our church building.

    It is horrendous. Built in 1973, it looks like an alien spaceship from the outside, and the sanctuary looks like a shower stall. The "nave" has low ceilings with ugly huge ballroom chandeliers. Matching burgundy pew pads and carpet, and a choir area to the right of the altar that was put in as an afterthought. Stained glass that belongs more in a bathroom rather than a church. Until about 15 years ago, the music was almost entirely guitar and a little piano. There is a nice little Allen Organ in the church that has gotten much more frequent use in the last 10 years. Ive been at the church/school now for two years and am looking forward to this new renovation. I'm including a couple pictures for you to see the inside of the church. And if you go to the home page for our parish, you can see the external in the video clip that plays on the home page. https://www.stjudechurchpeoria.org

    Our pastor is meeting with architects to just get the ball rolling. He knows that I would love to move the choir to a gallery in the west, as well as acquire a pipe organ.

    So...with all of this in mind, I would like to be prepared when he asks me about what it is I would specifically like to have. So I my first thought was to ask all of you. What would your ideal choir loft look like? What should I keep in mind? What should I avoid? Any and all advice is welcome.
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  • henry
    Posts: 241
    The organ console should be dead center in the choir loft with the organist facing the choir and the choir on risers in a semi-circle around the console.
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  • There should be terraced seating for the largest number of people you anticipate having in the choir, plus a little for growth. The organ console should be at the front centre of the choir seating. Do you anticipate using instruments from one great feast to another? If so, there should be space to seat half a dozen or so strings, plus space for other instruments, brass, for instance, and tympani. If you make space for instruments the organ console should be in front of their space (close to the gallery rail) so that you can direct everyone with ease.

    About the organ - How many ranks do you think will be desired and feasible? if you anticipate 16' facade pipes you will need approx. 20 or more feet of ceiling clearance to accommodate them - assuming that the pipe feet will be a minimum of more or less three or four feet above the floor. If you only anticipate 8' facade pipes you would need proportionately less ceiling clearance. Too, you should allow a minimum of ten feet of depth for the organ, behind the choir seating. Actually, you should be deciding on your preferred organ builder right now, and have him and the architect working together. The organ should not be an afterthought in an already built building.

    (Oh, and I forgot to mention that the choir gallery needs to be designed so that it has sufficient strength to bear the weight of the anticipated organ.)
  • Some things I'm curious about and have come into my head about the whole thing:

    1. Would it be ideal to have a warm up room in the loft area so the choir can sing together prior to going into the church proper? Or would the choir warm up in the church prior to the Mass?

    2. How about the music library? In the loft area or located somewhere else?

    3. If the choir were to start using robes or albs, would the robing area be in the loft or elsewhere?

    4. How deep should I make the terraces? (I saw an earlier thread about vinyl vs. wood vs. tile for the material in the loft).

    5. How do I keep chairs from making noise when sliding around on a hard reflective surface like I'm hopeful our loft will have?

    6. What about stands or stalls like the Anglicans? Would that work in a semi-circle? Could kneelers be added to these stalls? I would love to allow my choir to not have to hold their music.

    7. to Jackson in re: the organ. I get the impression that my Pastor has current connections to unused pipe organs in the parish that he would be able to reallocate, so I might not have much say in the matter. Assuming that is the case, would you recommend I contact a reputable organ manufacturer for transport and installation and to work with the architect?
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,296
    Aren't Buzard and Berghaus pretty close to you? You should be able to get some good information from either of those firms, though I personally prefer Buzard between the two of them.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Andrew -
    In answer to your second series of questions -
    It is ideal that you have a designated 'choir room' or 'choir hall', which would provide rehearsal space, closets for vestments, and provision for the storage of the choir library. This hall would be used for week-night choir rehearsals and other rehearsals, and Sunday morning 'warm-ups'. If you do/will not have a separate choirmaster's office, the choir hall should also have space with a desk for your work and study area. It is, obviously, desirable that this 'choir hall' be near the nave. The architecture of your building will influence this.

    You mention 'like the Anglicans'. I, of course, am partial to choir stalls in a church that has a formal up-front 'choir' or chancel as part of the architecture. I can see that stalls would be nice in a west gallery, but I also think that the added expense to build them is a mark against them. Too, they would curtail the versatility of your space. I would look into something like these church chairs with rush seats and kneelers behind that can be pulled up and down. You will also find these rush seats in the naves of many Anglican churches in lieu of pews.

    It is unclear in what you have written whether your pastor is going to 'renovate' the present church, or build a new one. I hope the latter. You are right about this church - it really is awful - a spiritually dead space.

    Godspeed!
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I was a bit concerned about those pew pads and the carpet. How are the acoustics in this place? That might require some reworking, too.
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  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    Another thought here from someone who has to sub in a church very similar to yours (but PTL you have a crucifix... ours has a horrible painting of the risen Jesus running toward you in a loin cloth... but I digress).

    Before you decide to move the choir to the loft, make sure the choir can see the sanctuary from the loft. At the church I mentioned, the choir can't see the sanctuary so their solution was to add a television monitor in the loft so the choristers can watch the Mass on the monitor (no joke).
  • "The organ console should be dead center in the choir loft with the organist facing the choir" this works well if the ONLY Mass where the organ is played is the choir Mass.

    Otherwise, an angled console that permits you to turn to the left and see the altar and to the right to conduct the choir when needed - is often a good compromise.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    I've always prefer Center and facing the choir even if no choir is present. A mirror takes care of seeing the altar. Obviously your personal preference there whether you prefer that or what Noel describes above.
  • Seek out pics of St. Martins Episcopal Church in Houston, TX for ideas and thoughts as to lay out. I have been there and it is very nice in many ways.
  • Here is one pic. The console is dead center in front of the choir and behind the screen; although you can't see it in this picture. The console is movable anywhere within the choir area behind the rood screen and also around the altar.
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  • While it is, indeed, a 'choir screen' it isn't really a 'rood screen' because it has no rood scene* atop it. I have been to many recitals and sacred concerts by visiting English cathedral choirs at St Martin's.

    Reflected in the design of this church is the current fad in the Episcopal church for putting choir and organ at the (liturgical) east end, behind the altar and a choir screen. Choirs belong 'in choir' or in west galleries, not screened off behind the altar, which should be the eastern-most object in any church - eastern-most and without competition for attention. St Martin's was built this way. St John the Divine (on River Oaks Blvd.), which, like most Anglican churches, had originally a choir betwixt nave and sanctuary, was (sadly) renovated in this way about ten years ago. It represents current liturgical chic.

    With all due respect plus some extra, I am surprised that Ken (of Sarum!) would regard this 'layout' as one to be mimicked in Catholic churches. As can be seen easily in the picture in Ken's comment, it is the organ (and the screened-off choir) which one easily could be led to believe was the object of worship. Notice how it dominates the area which rightly belongs to the altar alone, how it draws all attention to itself in a vista that should lead unmistakably to and focus solely on the altar and tabernacle. This is a fad which I do not recommend aping.
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    *A rood scene is an image of Christ crucified (or, in ancient Anglican-Sarum practice, a Christus Rex) flanked by statues of our Lady and St John. A 'rood' is a cross. Instead of a rood screen, some churches have rood beams. The rood beam is a high and hefty beam crossing betwixt the north and south walls of the chancel and having a rood scene centred upon it.
  • Looks like the ceiling height will be a huge obstacle. Here's one example of a renovation in a similar space, done on a shoestring budget.http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2013/02/chapel-renovation-jesuit-high-school_6.html?m=1

    The space needs as much live acoustic as possibly can be achieved. Strip out carpeting, pew cushions, and tapestry as allowed. The organ should speak directly into the main axis of the church. Do not settle for an electric organ, especially in a dry acoustic. It will sound like a stereo with a blanket over it. In a limited acoustic like this, you need big round sounds with lots of foundational tone. I would, in this particular and limited occasion, go for an English romantic or "American eclectic" type organ.

    Even if you are using an old organ or several old organs, a quality builder will revoice the instrument to fit your space. Involving a builder early will make huge differences in the success of the instrument.
  • JMG
    Posts: 2
    Why don't you ask one of those firms you mentioned tp look at the church and sketch out a choir loft with organ? The organ builder should be very much involved in the design of the loft where the organ will be. The worst thing to do is to build the loft and then call the organ builder - it could be completely wrong. I would engage one of those firms (they are all good) to be in on the planning form the get go.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    It seems that you don't know whether this will be a re-do of the current facility or a new building altogether. In either case, your 'wish list' (choir room, music room, etc.) implies a fairly large space available for you.

    Don't worry about chair-noises; the choir learns to be careful. Be very careful about the space available on your risers vis-a-vis the space taken by chairs with flying kneelers. Do NOT (just like MJO says) get fixed stalls NOR fixed seating; you will regret it because you cannot accommodate change in personnel, nor instrumentalists. (Last place I was in had exceedingly heavy chairs linked together with a sort of horseshoe chunk of metal. They were impossible to deal with.)

    You may want to consider having a water cooler up there, and be sure to have adequate lighting. Often, the "architectural" fixtures simply do not light the music well enough for the choir to see it.
  • MJO - yes I know its just a choir screen and yes I know its not a "rood screen." I was up very very late when I wrote my suggestion. Also, its not MY ideal. My ideal is an Anglican gothic cathedral setting like Westminster Abbey or Chester Cathedral. However, considering all the architectural garbage I have seen, my intention in suggesting St. Martins was simply to point out the somewhat half wrap around shaped design; regardless of where its placed. Every time I see an altar placed out in front of a choir or rood screen, I sicken - I even feel uneasy looking at St. Peters Basilica.

    By the way, and my poor memory is lacking lately, but isn't the choir area at Westminster Catholic Cathedral in London located behind the altar?

    My suggestion would be to bull-doze most of these modernist ecclesiastical disasters and start over. Of course I realize that's not practical nor would it pass the bishop's approval / offices nor would a parish in most cases have the funds to raise a truly glorious edifice worthy as a work of praise and adoration. All too often pastors, prelates and peoples want something erected quickly. Most of us in the arts know too well, that the road to sloppy and ugly artistic expressions of any kind are the results of haste and cutting corners! I would rather a parish put all their wealth into restoring some of the old churches that sadly languish rather than seeing them decay or be sold off. Have you ever seen on youtube these young guys and gals that go around through Europe and here in North America filming old abandoned cathedrals, chapels and monasteries? The youngters shake their heads and can't understand why anyone would abandon what was once a beautiful structure. Many still have intact organs and great stained glass.

    In my humble poor opinion, any and everything concerning the worship, praise and adoration of GOD should be of the finest, best and highest quality. It is our duty and responsibility to offer all to GOD in sacrifice. If the Mormons can erect gleaming white marbled and gold ornamented temples to "their" god, and Solomon spared no expense, then who are we not to strive towards the highest artistic expression in all the sacred arts.

  • ...choir area at...
    You are right, Ken, Westminster Cathedral's (and quite a few other Catholic cathedrals and churches) choir are situated behind a discreet screen behind the altar. This was a decadent practice not uncommon in many Catholic churches of hundred or so years ago. However, the difference between these and St Martin's et al., is that walking into the church all one sees is the altar in its sanctuary, and the organ is not visible at all. Still, this represents a bastardised arrangement without historical precedent which I would loathe to see emulated. Choirs belong 'in choir' or in a west gallery (or, as at St Mark's, Venice, multiple galleries).
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  • PS - Although I use to be a choirmaster and organist, I'd much rather see a divided organ setup like at St. George's Chapel Windsor Castle or like in some Anglican gothic settings where the organ is decani - cantoris speaking back and forth in the monastic choir area AND at angles into the crossing.
  • pfreese
    Posts: 147
    “this represents a bastardised arrangement without historical precedent...”

    I’d dispute that statement. Some notable examples of this eastward choir arrangement include all four Roman archbasilicas (St. John Lateran, St. Peter’s, St Mary Major, St. Paul Outside The Walls), all of which originate from no later than the Renaissance, and none ever had westward choir galleries (as was typical of Italy until relatively recently). The aforementioned Westminster Cathedral in London was partly inspired by this Roman arrangement. Sure, we can argue that the Italians have been doing it all wrong for centuries and that the Medieval English got it right, but to justify that by “historical precedent” doesn’t seem to hold up to much scrutiny IMHO.
  • Thanks for the information, pfeese. I was not aware that this arrangement had such a pedigree. I dare say, though, that neither choir nor organ in any way distract from or compete with the altar for attention in these churches.
  • I am very late answering this >> How do I keep chairs from making noise when sliding around on a hard reflective surface like I'm hopeful our loft will have?

    for prie-dieus, I bought a roll of adhesive beige Velcro tape and used just the soft side - cutting 4 inches or so to attach to the side edges, front and back

    for chairs, Brand A has many designs of slip on shoes for chair legs which have cork on the bottom. The cork slides quietly and will not scar the floor.
  • Would the old tennis ball method work? Either that, or you just need to get felt feet for them which are common many stores.
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  • Chaswjd
    Posts: 256
    I am conflicted about the idea of a loft. I sang at Milwaukee's Cathedral both before and after the renovation. I do understand that the renovation was and is controversial in many respects. I agree that there certainly was loss associated with it.

    However, there were some problems with the "old" loft arrangement which actually only dated to 1966. First, it was not built for large choirs. I sang a number of times for diocesan events with a choir of about 50 where we were literally crammed shoulder to shoulder on risers. It was most uncomfortable. An additional disadvantage of the layout was that the ambo was at least half a city block away from the organ and the choir loft. So, there was a noticeable time delay for the cantor to hear the sound of the organ. It was worse if the choir was trying to sing with the cantor.

    With the new arrangement, there was plenty of space for a large choir and even an orchestra. And the choir and cantor were close to the principal organ. While it may have been not to everyone's taste as a Catholic worship space, as a choir member, there was definite gain.

    Interestingly, before the 1966 loft, there was different arrangement. There were two spaces on each side of the old altar area on a "second" floor. To the south of the altar, there was large choir area with a wooden semi-circular tiered set of permanent risers. The organ counsel was placed there. On the other side, there was space for the organ. I assume that arrangement was abandoned because the space could not accommodate the 1966 organ.