Warning from Pastor: No gregorian music or in latin
  • MysticiCorporis
    Posts: 10
    Hello, I would like first some prayers and then some advice and how to reach the parish priest about this topic.

    I’m the director of a small schola that sings EF once a month and is trying to make known liturgical music in a country with awful music (DR), well i reached out to the parish which I go if we could sing one of the weekends and maybe help the choir already singing that day so they can have a weekend off, great... Well not so much, the Choirs manager informed me today that we could sing but to please stay in the form and style of the others choirs(guitar, battery, etc...) and to avoid anything “gregorian” or “latin” because people need to understand and he’s being careful not to feed the fundamentalist traditionals that is plaguing the church today.

    I just told him that we are just singing liturgical music and actually following church directives and that we have no guitar but only organ(it’s a small viscount keyboard) and that I could send him the songs we would be singing so he can approve them, he told me we should have a meeting with the pastor and work things out.

    Well, it didn’t strike me as odd, because I’ve known the pastor for a few years now and while he’s not against tradition(at least I thought) he doesn’t promote it either, we’ve also sung a few times in this parish before including some EFs we do for Christmas time(he doesn’t celebrate them, nor attend them cause he’s always busy during that time), so I don’t know why the change of mind. So, if anyone can help me that could help my cause or show some options I could put into action would be greatly appreciated, thank you and God bless.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    MysticiCorporis,

    You could say that you're carefully following the directives of Vatican II, which said that Gregorian Chant is to have pride of place, but I doubt your interlocutor will tolerate it.

    You could say you haven't yet been blessed with a guitarist.

    You could say that you're not competent to play guitar or sing the music, and since you wanted to let it stand on its own merits, you wanted those who would sing it as it should be sung to sing it, and choose not to sing it badly yourself.

    You could succumb to the argument that since you're singing at one of "their" Masses, you should sing "their" music.... but remember that the Mass is addressed to God, so it's not your Mass or theirs, but God's.

    You could ask him to define "fundamentalist traditionals", and ask him where you can see the terrible evil these people are wreaking.

    You could gracefully bow out.

    Since we're in the nine days before St. Jude's, you could pray for a miracle.

    Thanked by 1MysticiCorporis
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,367
    Chris -
    I shouldn't encourage MysticiCorporis to plead that he or she 'hasn't been blessed with a guitarist' - because the priest just might find one for him or her.

    Clearly, no one, this priest included, has a shred of authority to forbid chant, allowing as how the council stated clearly that it was to be preserved and fostered. No one has any ground whatsoever, nor any leg to stand on, nor even a hint of authority to obstruct or forbid what the council enjoined in no uncertain terms. What there IS authority for is teaching chant to one's people, preserving it, and fostering it.

    It is sad that people have to bow and scrape to such mindless and ego-centric defiance of the council and successive popes. This matter has been well-treated on the other thread, 'why do people hate chant'.

    Chris' other suggestion, 'You could gracefully bow out', may be the best advice. Clearly, this field has been sown with salt.

    However - before 'bowing out' I would have a meeting with the pastor and share with him the beauty of this chant commanded by VII to be known by all. If such a meeting should bear no fruit, 'bowing out' with one's dignity intact would seem to be the most intelligent course.
    Thanked by 1MysticiCorporis
  • ContinuousbassContinuousbass
    Posts: 357
    You have to pity a priest living with such sin (forbidding the liturgical music). You can’t tell them that, but do have pity on their souls. Let his bishop work things out for you. No need to try and become the boss all of a sudden. In these days if you want chant, go to a University, not a local parish. Then become inspired to try and teach the Church, and let them tell you where you can go sing your chant.
    Thanked by 1MysticiCorporis
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,767
    One way to look at things is to imagine someone approached the parish (not the music director?) you do your monthly EF service at with an offer to give you a week off. Would you think you have any duty to make sure the congregation would be able to sing their parts to familiar music and that the celebrant would not be surprised by anything?
    Thanked by 2a_f_hawkins MysticiCorporis
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    Matthew 7:6
    "Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you."


    As for letting the people hear the music of the Church why not arrange to sing Vespers and or Compline.
    Thanked by 4M. Jackson Osborn MysticiCorporis CHGiffen StimsonInRehab
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    If what you were suggesting is that you perform at an OF in the way you have previously, and that this has been declined, then I would not push it further. It suggests that approach has not worked.
    Provided you can still get the EF Masses at this church around Christmas, as previously. I would then see the pastor to thank him, and clarify the OF position then.
    Thanked by 1MysticiCorporis
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    @tomjaw, IIRC there was also a passage about 'shaking the dust from your feet' when leaving towns which rejected the message of the Church.
    Thanked by 4MysticiCorporis tomjaw CharlesW Continuousbass
  • MysticiCorporis
    Posts: 10
    Thank you guys for your replies, I will try to address everyone in this post, a bit of background so you can see where I would stand. My parents and I been going to this parish for more than 8 years now and we've been very active with the differents activites the parish offers, I myself been an altar server and sometimes master of ceremonies, partaken in the youth group and also was one of the founding members of the youth group singing on Sat's masses before leaving because of the music and their resistence to change.

    So the pastor knows where I stand, fidelity to rubrics(which is an ongoing battle), liturgical music, chant, polyphony and all the stuff Church commends. So it wouldn't be a stranger knocking on someone's door.


    @ChrisGarton-Zavesky

    Apparently some rad-trad had a conversation with him a month ago and he's been talking in his homilies about the dangers of the traditionalist mentality and how they think everything we do post council is invalid and wrong. Thank you for the St. Jude's novena suggestion would give a try!

    @M.JacksonOsborn

    Thank you for your reply, being aware of church stance, it pains me the way priests make themselves the authority to prohibit this thing or this another thing, not by law but by sheer brute force of authority. I think I would give the meeting a try and exhibit Church's teachings. Yes, the soil has been sown with calumny and false testimony from people I thought were friends and brothers.

    @Continuousbass

    What's worse is the bishop is not better in this theme, this is a very uphill battle but I know this is a good one so I won't stop spreading Churchs message.

    @RichardMix

    That's a different point of view, helpful also. We don't have a parish assigned yet nor a stable priest to celebrate for us we borrow an Order of Malta managed colonial-era church, actually we would love other choirs would help us since we're small hahah, provided they sing liturgical music and chant. The bishop has been silent for more than two years at our request of stablishing a private lay association for traditional latin mass and the fostering of gregorian chant and traditional devotions.

    @tomjaw and @dad29

    This is exactly what my mom was telling me yesterday, right when Jesus sent off the disciples:

    And when you come into the house, salute it, saying: Peace be to this house. And if that house be worthy, your peace shall come upon it; but if it be not worthy, your peace shall return to you. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet. Amen I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


    @a_f_hawkins

    Thank you, yeah apparently it didn't work, but oh well... I would sure give him my thanks for his time and service.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Ken of Sarum
    Posts: 406
    The great apostasy continues within the Church! I will pray for you.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    The bishop has been silent for more than two years at our request of stablishing a private lay association for traditional latin mass and the fostering of gregorian chant and traditional devotions.

    I'm not aware that the bishop's permission is needed to create a private lay association.

    Incidentally, the description you give for the association, MysticiCorporis, sounds like a chapter of Una Voce.
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 425
    No one was fooled by your offer to "give the choir a break": It's October, they're barely back from the summer break, they don't need another one.

    Focus on what you're doing, and do it well. Let it be known that you're open to invitations to sing in parishes - but don't try to invite yourself into specific ones. Let them invite you, knowing what you do. When you are invited, offer humble service based on the skills and talents you have. Make sure that the lives and behaviours of your members reflect love of Christ for all humankind. The rest will follow.
  • MysticiCorporis
    Posts: 10
    @chonak

    You’re right, but we were trying to be “transparent” and let the bishop know about our doing. Yes, we’ve talked about that too.

    @PaxMelodious

    Yeah, but we don’t usually have “summer break” for choirs like the US does, and they were announcing after post communio they were needing volunteers to sing. But you’re right, thank you for your reply.
  • AnnS
    Posts: 13
    It might be helpful to focus on the desire to include the Propers in Sunday Mass. They have an important place in the Liturgy, and it might ring true for Fr. considering he probably uses them in daily Mass (those who attend daily Mass in my parish say the Propers with the priest ...it's a shame Sunday Mass-goers often don't know they exist). I would suggest picking a particular feast day in which the connection of the Propers with the Liturgy of the Word is more obvious.

    I don't know if there is still hope at your current parish, but in highlighting the value of the Propers, you don't have to say anything negative about the dominant music situation, just present the valuable source of meditation that the Church offers in full use of the Liturgy.
    ...I would also suggest offering everything in English (unless the priest has already approved some use of Latin - usually in the Ordinaries of Advent or Lent).

    ...Plant a small seed, and pray that those in the pews tell Fr. how much they appreciated what you offered.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen PaxMelodious
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