Fee for commissioning of a new hymn?
  • Fr_Buffer
    Posts: 13
    I have been asked to compose a new hymn for a parish anniversary. My task includes writing both words and music, providing a melody-only version, an SATB/organ version, and a "bigger" version with brass and treble descant. The parish would like to know my fee. I have no idea what is usual in the USA for this sort of thing. Does anyone have relevant experience or direct knowledge? Thanks.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    I ask between $300-400 for text only. For the project you have here I would ask $2500-$3000.
    Thanked by 2irishtenor Incardination
  • Fr_Buffer
    Posts: 13
    Thank you, Kathy.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Obviously, I don't ask (or receive) nearly enough!
    Thanked by 5irishtenor Incardination canadash CharlesW tomjaw
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    Compare your time and expertise with, say, wedding fees.
  • WGS
    Posts: 300
    In 2003, I sang with the choir of Christ Episcopal Church in Dover, Delaware for their 300th anniversary as they entered their 4th century.

    For the year long celebration, a choir setting of the hymn "Lord of Our Dawning" was provided by Ray Urwin. The fee set by the composer was $700 which included the copyright fee.

    My friend, Rick Givens, who was organist and choirmaster comments that "I would never commission a hymn tune and hymn text by the same person. Rarely is the same person equally talented in both arenas. Again, just a comment."
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    Basically the logic behind the Designated Hitter rule.
    Thanked by 2WGS bhcordova
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    "Designated Hitter rule"

    As my late father would say, that's for "fake baseball." He didn't want to live into the advent of the rule in the NL. 93 years minus a few weeks was good enough for him.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    My dear Dad passed away before the DH. But he told me what he thought about pitchers and batting. He said that every other position has to be able to both field and hit--they had to have both strengths to make it to the majors. But pitchers only had to have pitching skills.

    I told that to a man I knew who had pitched college ball and was a pro prospect before an injury cut him short. He said the reason pitchers were bad hitters was that they weren't allowed to go to batting practice.

    Same idea, I suppose. Pitching is more important than batting.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 776
    I also think Kathy's estimate is, what you might call, optimistic. The real answer is, basically, whatever they are willing to pay, which will be somewhere between the number you give them and what they have already decided. So you might as well pitch a number on the absurd side. The worst that happens is they balk, and offer the project to Miss Pribble's 2nd graders as an interactive class project. Which saves you the bother.

    But you should also factor in: a) how many copies are being produced; b) whether it will be reproduced in any electronic, especially online format; c) whether a recording is planned and where that recording is likely to end up (internet again); and d) if there is any reasonable hope that the piece will be used again in the future, which is usually not very likely.

    Finally, on the off chance it might be something of wider interest than just your parish, make sure you retain rights to have it published elsewhere. Be aware that publishers will think twice about publishing something that is already slathered (sometimes irrevocably) across the web.
    Thanked by 5Carol CHGiffen Liam Incardination Fr_Buffer
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    Well, far be it from me to question how much composers make. I'm a words girl. But on my only project approaching this in scope, my fee was 2k.

    Richard's advice on nailing down details is sound.
    Thanked by 2Incardination Fr_Buffer
  • francis
    Posts: 10,827
    Between 1500 and 2000 is fair, but text is above and beyond a composing commission
    Thanked by 2Incardination Fr_Buffer
  • sergeantedward
    Posts: 195
    Standard fees for composition are normally based off of the performance time of the piece, usually not flat fees. E.g. Your rate might be $500 per minute, a 3 minute choral piece equaling $1,500.
    Thanked by 3Kathy Incardination Fr_Buffer
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    x 2 for the "bigger version."
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Let's see, 8.5 minutes, x 2 for the bigger version ... oh wow!! Maybe I could fund a trip to the next Colloquium!!!

    Thanked by 2Incardination bhcordova
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    My friend, Rick Givens, who was organist and choirmaster comments that "I would never commission a hymn tune and hymn text by the same person. Rarely is the same person equally talented in both arenas. Again, just a comment."

    A wise statement. I would never commission both from the same person either. We've seen what gift the group I call "troubadours" has given to the Church in the USA these past 40 years or so. What Rick Givens failed to say is that often the "troubadours" are equally untalented in both arenas.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen tomjaw Liam
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Please, composers and text writers, never assign the copyright to your creative work to the commissioning entity, no matter what the commission fee is. And do not waste your time entering any competition which says it will own the copyright to the winning entry. BIG MISTAKE made by Omer Westendorf and Robert Kreutz for their "Gift of Finest Wheat." My recollection is that each of these fine gentlemen received $500 from the Archdiocese of Philadelphia for winning the 1976 International Eucharistic Congress hymn competition. I was once told by someone at GIA that that publisher alone had paid well in excess of $50,000 in royalties to the Archdiocese of Philadelphia for permission to republish that one hymn text and tune since 1976.
    Thanked by 10M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen JL tomjaw Kathy Incardination MarkB Liam Casavant Organist MNadalin
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    Another voice on art competitions: http://danielmitsui.blogspot.com/2018/08/a-complaint-about-design-competitions.html
  • francis
    Posts: 10,827
    I don't enter competitions, and especially if they require an entrance fee. When I compose music, it's a job. Must be paid for working.
  • Carol
    Posts: 856
    I understand that one person is not usually equally gifted as a composer and a lyricist. However I do think it is extremely important that the lyricist and composer work closely together to ensure that the character of each of these elements match in order to have a really successful creation.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    I thought that too, until I worked with the late great Colin Brumby. RIP.
    Thanked by 1MarkS
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    "I would never commission both from the same person either. We've seen what gift the group I call "troubadours" has given to the Church in the USA these past 40 years or so. What Rick Givens failed to say is that often the "troubadours" are equally untalented in both arenas."

    One key modern problem is that this era's instrumentalists are much less co-educated in sacred vocal music from an early age than was the case in the past. So they tend to conceive and compose from the instrument, with voice as an orchestrated stop, as it were. The problem is glaringly obvious (to vocalists, at least) in too much contemporary music.
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 776
    Perhaps, Liam, but I would argue the problem faced by modern composers of choral music is more about incompetent singers, whose training never moved beyond common practice, and who absolutely refuse to absorb modern harmonies and rhythmic textures. Unless you mean this era's instrumentalists should be co-educated in cow-towing to the limitations of those most likely to sing sacred vocal music... which usually ends up happening anyway, no matter what the (thoroughly depressed) composer wants.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen MarkS
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    I have to agree with Liam in this case. It is obvious that many modern composers do not understand the fundamental idiom of the voice - most egregiously in the disconnect between consonants/vowels and desired articulation. I plan to write a book on the subject.

    That being said, many composers use these "modern harmonies and rhythmic textures" well and their works are absolutely singable (and frequently sung) by choirs.
  • Fr_Buffer
    Posts: 13
    Thank you to everyone who responded to my question, and to those who wrote other things, less responsive, but still worth reading in most cases. It will be interesting to see if I can be the exception to the rule that the same person should not write both tune and text, but that is not for me to say. Nemo iudex in causa sua after all.
    Thanked by 3chonak mattebery francis
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