+Sample promulgates new archdiocesan liturgical handbook
  • hilluminar
    Posts: 95
    I wish they would have put more emphasis on chanting the actual Propers of the Mass, whether in English or in Latin.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,498
    Yah, well.......given the situation in Portland, this is already a stretch to the "orthodox" side of the dial. Note, for example, that he has to specifically mention "no Credos other than the REAL Credos"...(words to that effect.)

    You can expect that there will be serious and lengthy resistance to this.
  • hilluminar
    Posts: 95
    So much of this document, at least in the musical parts of it, are just quotes from previous documents of Vatican II or papal pronouncements.

    I see that they are allowing "percussive instruments" to be used at Mass if they are "suitable, or can be made suitable..." What? Does that mean that pianos (percussive because hammers hit strings) are now allowed in Portland parishes officially, or does this just refer to drums? (And btw, how can drums ever be made "suitable" for Mass?) This document certainly contradicts tra le sollecitudini.

    Also, this document would have been a perfect opportunity to emphasize the importance of option 1 from the General Instructions to the Roman Missal for at least the Entrance and Holy Communion Propers. Alas, this opportunity was missed. It looks like OCP will still be peddling their "chants" to the parishes, and the parishes will still be singing substitutions for the real (minor) Propers of the Mass, and the priests will go on thinking that these substitutions are just fine.

    Lord, who can save us from this? We are being deprived of actual parts of the Mass each Sunday!

    Something to muse on:
    In the Maronite rite (I don't know about the other 21 Eastern rites in union with Rome) the Order of Cantor is one of the minor Orders, and the Cantor chants the (minor) Propers during Mass. In the Roman rite, the Cantor has never been a part of minor Orders, now called "ministries", which in and of itself gives the clear and distinct impression that the Readings given by the Lector (an official ministry in the Church) are of much more importance that the (minor) Propers. Perhaps if the Office of Cantor came into the Roman West, the (minor) Propers might be more valued.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,151
    It looks like OCP will still be peddling their "chants" to the parishes

    This.
    This is the issue that needs redressing in Portland. +Sample could do us ALL a huge favor by intervening, analyzing and redirecting the methodologies and course of all OCP functions before it further "promulgates" more Emperor's Clothes Fashion Books into the liturgical economy. As we already can access the GR/GS/GM and such official resources, the English/Spanish Church in No. America could benefit by, at least, a working blend of vernacular chants for ordinaries, propers and psalmody (ala Ig.Pew.Msl. and Lumen Christi), and a vastly improved editorial content with hymnody and song. Changing the repertoire culture ought to positively affect the "performance" culture and modalities. YMMV.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen hilluminar
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,392
    Apropos of Melo's comment, it may also be noted that, in the previous decade, the USCCB engaged in a finesse to deputize conference-level approval issues to the ordinary having jurisdiction over the domicile of a publisher. Thus, the ordinaries of Archdiocese of Portland in Oregon, the Archdiocese of of Chicago and the Diocese of Saint Cloud, are at least notionally in a position to attempt something more than their confreres. (Of course, if they attempt something, the conference might well reconsider the deputation.)
  • Liam,

    It is worth noting who is in Chicago?
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,392
    Not particularly. It's not like his late immediate predecessor took any initiative in this regard either before his illness took center stage in the last two years of his episcopate.
    Thanked by 1Olivier
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,498
    "percussive instruments"


    Kettledrums are fine, have been since about 1956.

    Piano is also a percussion instrument, should have been definitively banned. If there are 300 parishes in Portland you can bet large money that pianos and rock-roll drumsets are used in at least 30 of them.

    Kettles? MAYBE one. After all, those are symphonic instruments. Wouldn't want to have too much actual Western culture here......
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,498
    the USCCB engaged in a finesse to deputize conference-level approval issues to the ordinary having jurisdiction over the domicile of a publisher.

    Does a Conference even have such authority?
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,888
    The thing about tympani is that in order to be effective musically, you need a formation of at least two and ideally four or six.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,498
    The Milwaukee Symphony's tymp-set was always 4--except during Britten's War Requiem.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,392
    "Does a Conference even have such authority?"

    It had the power in fact (rather than authority in law), given even the slightest hint of exertion of effort by Rome in this regard (LA 108) was pretty much a dead letter upon issuance. (The USCCB's finesse was presumably with regard to that.) Mind you, it's not like it's the only liturgical directive to be virtually dead letter on promulgation - something that predates Vatican II, mind you.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,790
    So ... tympani are in and pianos are out? ... yet both occur in the symphonic repertoire, which some seem to set as the basis for including such instruments for liturgical use? I rather think that tympani or piano alone or in a small ensemble is not something desirable for accompanying liturgical choral music. But, lest you forget or do not know, Stravinsky's remarkable Symphony of Psalms, has, not one, but two pianos in the orchestra. And several of Shostakovitch's symphonies employ the piano. Maybe it's a Slavic or eastern thing ... but then, the eastern churches (Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholic) seem to stick to a cappella singing.
    Thanked by 1MarkS
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,498
    Umnnhhh.........tymps are scored in to Mozart and Haydn Masses.

    I sang the Symphony of Psalms so I knew about the pianos. So what? That's not exactly "liturgical music" is it?

    The piano is not the organ, which is the genesis of the dis-favor of that instrument. The fact that it's a percussion instrument is Part Two of same.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 1,366
    Mind you, it's not like it's the only liturgical directive to be virtually dead letter on promulgation - something that predates Vatican II, mind you.

    IIRC, Basile's Fifth Avenue Famous has some passages on the very spotty reception of Tra le sollecitudine in US parishes.
    Thanked by 1Liam