Singing propers in Latin AND English?
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    I'm cantoring this weekend, after a long absence due to travel.

    It's Laetare Sunday (thanks, Jeff, for the nice article on the NLM), and am planning to chant the Introit as a prelude (not ideal, I know), and will probably chant the Offertory and Communion chants as well, either from the Gregorian Missal, or from an English setting of the propers, such as Fr. Weber's or the Anglican Use Gradual…

    …or both, perhaps? Fr. Weber's setting, for example, has English text set exactly (or nearly so) to the original Gregorian melody. And, lo and behold, same thing with his setting for the Offertory.

    I understand that the Introit is usually sung as Antiphon-Verse-Gloria Patri-Antiphon. Would it be unseemly to perhaps sing that last Antiphon in English? Or on the Offertory… it's probably short enough for me to sing it twice, perhaps sandwiched around an organ improvisation. (Yes, I'll be singing these accompanied, using the NOH and/or Fr. Weber's accompaniments.) How about singing it once in Latin, then the second time in English?

    I'm hoping this might make the whole notion of Latin propers a bit more approachable for the PIPs. Your thoughts?
  • David Sullivan
    Posts: 355
    At my parish weekday Mass, I often sing the Communio for feast days. Lately, I've been singing it first in English on the psalm tone, followed by the Gregorian chant in Latin. The pastor says the English really helps him to appreciate the Latin. (That reminds me, I need to look at the chant for St Joseph's feast...)
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    I don't see a problem here at all. This strategy deals frankly with the existing reality.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Thanks, Jeffrey. Can you (or someone) remind me… isn't there an extended form for the Introit? Something like Antiphon-verse-GP-verse again-Antiphon? I can't remember quite what it was, nor when it's appropriate to use it.
  • Aristotle EsguerraAristotle Esguerra
    Posts: 1,186
    Mark M.:

    What you call an extended form is in this format:
    Antiphon-verse-Antiphon-verse-Antiphon-GP-Antiphon

    This may be applied to the Communion (see Communio) and the Offertory (see this booklet by R. Rice).

    The appropriateness of it as far as using the Graduale chants would be time, I suppose. For vernacular plainsong and choral settings of the antiphons, the practice could be extended to accommodate the length of the procession or preparation.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Hm. Thanks very much, Aristotle.

    So, I just listened to the "Laetare" Introit as sung by the monks (I presume) at St. Benedict's Monastery in São Paulo, Brazil, here. They just did Antiphon-verse-antiphon… no Gloria Patri. But with the extended form as you described it, is it okay for the same verse to be repeated?

    And is the Gloria Patri really included as part of the Communion chant? All this time, I've just been doing the repeated antiphon and the various verses.
  • Ioannes Andreades
    Posts: 311
    Mark M.,
    The intro to the 1974 Grad. Rom. gives a few options for singing the Introit, including what the monks did, or simply chanting the antiphon and verse, or even simply the antiphon. The Grad. Simp. actually includes additional verses from the same psalm.

    In terms of the E.F. usage, cf. De Musica Sacra 27:

    Also note the following points with regard to the sung Mass:
    a) If the priest and his ministers go in procession by a long aisle, it would be permissible for the choir, after the singing of the Introit antiphon, and its psalm verse, to continue singing additional verses of the same psalm. The antiphon itself may be repeated after each verse or after every other verse; when the celebrant has reached the altar, the psalm ceases, and the Gloria Patri is sung, and finally the antiphon is repeated to conclude the Introit procession.

    b) After the Offertory antiphon is sung, it is also allowed to sing the ancient Gregorian melodies of the original Offertory verses which once were sung after the antiphon.
    Additional Verses
    But if the Offertory antiphon is taken from a psalm, it is then permitted to sing additional verses of this same psalm. In this case, too, the antiphon may be repeated after each verse of the psalm, or after every second verse; when the offertory rite is finished at the altar the psalm is ended with the Gloria Patri, and the antiphon is repeated. If the antiphon is not taken from a psalm, then any psalm suited to the feast may be used. Another possibility is that any Latin song may be used after the Offertory antiphon provided it is suited to the spirit of this part of the Mass. The singing should never last beyond the "Secret".
  • Aristotle EsguerraAristotle Esguerra
    Posts: 1,186
    Additional verses as a rule are taken from the same Psalm as the first verse. However, if you're thinking of repeating the same verse in different languages, I don't think that would be a problem, really. Especially if the program points this out (and people take the time to read it).

    Some years back, for the Presentation of the Lord (Ordinary Form), we used a plainsong antiphon with verses from the Nunc Dimittis in English, Spanish, and Latin. (Here's the music list for that day for those interested. To be clear, we sang the entire Nunc Dimittis in each of the three languages.)

    Regarding the Gloria Patri at Communion: Joannes Andreades just answered it above while I was typing this. (I direct the chant in an E.F. setting.)
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Wow… this makes sense! Thank you both, very much. Indeed, the collapsible/expandable form is part of the genius and beauty of this music.

    I didn't precisely see an answer to my Gloria Patri at Communion question, but I'll assume that it's properly done in the same manner as the Offertory, as Ioannes described. (But do I have to sing the GP? Am I wrong for omitting it, at least in the Ordinary Form?)

    The tougher part, for me at least, is finding the additional verses (and especially corresponding music) for these propers, particularly if I'm singing them in English: Fr. Weber's wonderful settings are sometimes incomplete. The Anglican Use Gradual will provide only a reference (e.g., "additional verses from Psalm 92 may be sung"), with no text or music; moreover, the numbering of the Psalms often doesn't match the numbering in a modern Bible (NAB) or the Gregorian Missal. And I'm not quite comfortable yet in singing the English translations at the end of each Communio chant on my own on a Psalm tone.

    But with practice, and with the increasing number of resources available to me, I'm getting there. Thanks again, friends.
  • Aristotle EsguerraAristotle Esguerra
    Posts: 1,186
    Glad you find this helpful, Mark. I wouldn't say that you are wrong for omitting the Gloria Patri as far as the Ordinary Form goes — after all, the OF missal redacts four instances of "Dominus Vobiscum" from the EF missal — or even for the Extraordinary Form, as I doubt these verses were on the radar for many places that were part of the original Liturgical Movement. There are (rare) times that even we will just sing the Communion antiphon alone.

    Regarding Psalm numbers, the Solesmes and Vatican books follow the Vulgate/Septuagint numbering, while many modern translations follow the Hebrew numbering. (See here for a quick rundown.)
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Now there's something to print out. Thanks!
  • Ioannes Andreades
    Posts: 311
    Intro to 1974 Grad. Rom. 17

    Dum sacerdos sumit Corpus Domini, inchoatur antiphona ad communionem. Cantus autem eodem modo peragitur ac cantus ad introitum, ita tamen ut cantores sacramentum commode participare possint.
    While the priest comsumes the Lord's Body, the antiphon for communion is begun. Moreover, the chant is conducted in the same way as the chant for the introit, however in such a way that the singers can readily take part in the sacrament.

    What I neglected in my comment above (my apologies) is that the the shortened renditions of the introit are given as options if the chant would too lengthy (si contingat...cantum nimis protrahi) or the procession is rather short (processio brevior est).

    My take on it is that the Gloria Patri should be sung at communion (in O.F.) unless the communion rite would be unnecessarily extended because of it, an unlikely situation, I guess.
  • ProfKwasniewskiProfKwasniewski
    Posts: 247
    Mark,
    On the 3rd Sunday of Lent, I sang the Oculi omnium introit first in Latin, with the antiphon, and then in English using Bruce Ford's version, which was the closest in style and spirit. I had never done this before, but having sensed that there were quite a few people for whom the Introit was a nice background hum with no appreciable intellectual content, I decided to try the parallel. I didn't ask anyone what they thought of it, but I was surprised at how natural and smooth it seemed to me from a musical and liturgical point of view.
    Peter Kwasniewski
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Excellent, Peter. For Laetare Sunday this weekend, I'm planning to do something very similar, though with Fr. Weber's propers. I'll be accompanied with the NOH accompaniments (when singing from the Gregorian Missal) or with Fr. Weber's own accompaniments when singing in English.

    I'll let you know how it goes!
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    This piece, ATTENDE DOMINE in alternating Spanish and Latin, was sung at the Corpus Christi Cathedral a few Sundays back. The microphone is really soft at the beginning and then (inexplicably) gets louder as the piece progresses. One singer was at the back of Church in the loft, and one singer was in the Sanctuary. It worked nicely.
  • janetgorbitzjanetgorbitz
    Posts: 968
    This is probably a very simple question, but can you tell me if my guess was correct... the Gloria Patri is not added to the Requiem Introit at a funeral Mass because (my guess) it isn't a Sunday or feastday? I'm sure that information is somewhere in one of the books I have on my shelves, but am too lazy to dig... thanks in advance :)
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Hi, Janet.

    Unless I am wrong, in the 1962 Missal, the GLORIA PATRI was omitted at Requiem Masses because Requiem Masses do not have a joyful character. (The same propers now occur on All Souls' Day).

    However, after the Second Vatican Council, I really don't know when to omit the Gloria Patri, or when to include it.
  • Aristotle EsguerraAristotle Esguerra
    Posts: 1,186
    Janet,

    In addition to Jeff's comment, the last of the optional verses for (1) the Offertory as found in the Offertoriale Triplex and (2) the Communion as found in Communio, is "Requiem aeternam...lux perpetua luceat eis" This also occurs with the psalms assigned for the Office of the Dead, as found in the Liber Usualis, where it replaces the Gloria Patri.
  • janetgorbitzjanetgorbitz
    Posts: 968
    I have the Communio... need the offertoriale triplex and just ordered the Versus Psalmorum et Canticorum from the Lulu site. So many great books... so little shelf space.
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