• ghmus7
    Posts: 1,464
    I propose a new category: "Organ matters" We have discussions about organ stuff all ove this board, perhaps we should have a category devoted to it.
    Hmmm, maybe there is a pun in the title?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Ghmus7

    You r right. The organ certainly matters! Good idea.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Well, I thought this was very informative. Starting from the beginning. (this is from article "Vatican II and Sacred Music" by Kurt Poterack. http://www.musicasacra.com/publications/sacredmusic/pdf/sm125-4.pdf)


    COMMENTARY: The pipe organ is such a good example of inculturation that most people would be surprised that this instrument was once considered inappropriate for the liturgy. One could say that there are three potential stages to inculturation: accommodation, purification, and transformation."Accommodation" is the immediate acceptance by missionaries of neutral customs native people may have, such as the removal of shoes upon entering a holy place. The "purification" and "transformation" stages, however, are long term processes and are what the organ had to go through to be accepted into the liturgy. The early form of the pipe organ, the hydraulis, was used by the ancient Romans at gladiator contests and, thus, would have been repugnant to the early Christians. In addition to this, the organ was used at theatrical spectacles which began and ended with prayers and sacrifices offered to a god, so the organ had a secondary repugnant association for Christians—idolatry. With the conversion of the Emperor Constantine in the 4th century and the
    transformation of Christianity into a state religion, the Roman emperor emerged as a Christian emperor. The organ came to be associated with the emperor, who had now moved to the eastern city of Constantinople, but as a Christian emperor he was seen by many as a kind of vicar, or representative, of God— somewhat like the Pope. Perhaps the organ itself, used in the
    Byzantine court ceremonial, began to be associated with God. At any rate by this time, the organ had been purified of its pagan associations. Despite all this progress, it is almost certain that the organ did not make it into the liturgy proper at Constantinople, since, to this day, most Eastern liturgies are noted for their unaccompanied singing. It remained for the Western church to take this instrument, purified of pagan associations and already associated with a representative of the Christian God, to be fully transformed into a liturgical instrument. Although there is scholarly disagreement as to exactly when the organ was first introduced into the Western liturgy, it
    occurred sometime between the 10th and 13th centuries. It was fully integrated into the Roman Rite by the 16th century when some English Protestants were denigrating the pipe organ as a "Popish instrument."
    Several lessons can be learned from the organ's history of inculturation. The first is that the organ was not inserted into the liturgy immediately. This would have been disastrous. It had to be purified and transformed outside the liturgy first. Secondly, this purification and transformation took a long time—at least six centuries. Thirdly, this was not something that was planned by a committee of liturgists, it happened gradually over time in such a way that probably no Christian was aware of what the ultimate outcome of this transformative process would be (i.e. the introduction of the
    pipe organ into the liturgy). One could even argue that this whole process and its outcome were due to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Fourthly and finally, since the organ has been consecrated for use in, and intimately associated with, the sacred mysteries, it has derived from them the quality of VATICAN II "holiness." Therefore, it is akin to a sacramental and cannot be willfully replaced by other instruments—such as the guitar or piano—just because someone personally prefers those instruments. To do this would be to go
    contrary to tradition, to the sense of the sacred, and to that process of inculturation which, working itself out in the West over the past two millennia, has given us a sacred instrument—the pipe organ.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    mia - So when Eric Clapton and Carlos Santana convert we can officially enter the purification phase for guitar?
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    I wish I knew. God willing, it can happen.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Speaking as a Byzantine Catholic, I think one of the reasons instruments were not used in eastern liturgies, had more to do with the fact that they never lost their secular connotations in the east. In the west after the fall of Rome, civilization collapsed. With no circuses and chariot races in which to use organs for several hundred years, it was easier to introduce organs into the western liturgy.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Two notes:

    1) Rembert Weakland, OSB, remarked that 'the pipe organ was an instrument used principally in French whorehouses.'

    Must be some sort of Benedictine bigotry, I suppose.

    2) Charles, the Easterns are certainly more 'in stasis' than the Westerns, in almost all items surrounding the Liturgy.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    There is nothing that is particularly against the guitar. It is more about the bulk of the music (profane) that it accompanies that has made it suspect. I accompany hymns and even chant on a twelve string and it is quite a beautiful sound. Pray for Weaklands soul.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Well, it's kind of hard to find anyone with the credentials to argue with Sts. Basil the Great and John Chrysostom who wrote those liturgies. The same for St. Gregory the Great who developed western liturgy. Perhaps what he did was good enough and should have been left alone, you would think. Don't get me started on Weakland! A plague on his house.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Charles

    You should not curse anyone. Simply pray for them.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    More of a figurative curse than a literal one. Plagues and poxes are few and far between these days, along with murrains on cattle, and houses turned into dunghills. Didn't the King James Bible have a powerful way with language? Ship of fools has a biblical curse generator, for those interested in such things.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    dad29:

    As a Benedictine oblate, I'll have none of that! French whorehouses, indeed. As if Couperin, Grigny et. al. never played in the greatest cathedral and parish churches in France!

    The only bigot here is poor Weakland. Now I must, out of charitable duty to a fellow Benedictine, pray for him.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    St. Thomas deals with the ethical aspects of cursing here in the Summa..

    He points out that cursing in order to wish evil upon a person is always wrong, whereas a curse invoking a just punishment or a chastisement to bring about conversion may be acceptable. However, the examples he gives are of people with some authority to invoke such punishments, such as a judge or a prophet.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Charles, the 'in stasis' item wasn't a judgment--it is an observation. Even before the adventures-in-liturgy following Vat2, the Roman liturgy was loosey-goosey (Mozart Mass Ordinaries, e.g.) compared to the Eastern.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,183
    Oh good,another Benedictine oblate among us. I am not alone. Thanks David A.

    As for Weakland, poor dear soul. Time passes, thank goodness.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I don't think Weakland is dead.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,183
    He is not.
  • We have to wait for Clapton and Santana to CONVERT for an apostolate for guitarists.
    Disculpe me, but some of us sleepers out here are pretty accomplished and discreet players of the instrument in question. And no, we don't need to "go there" here.;-) We're not, ahem, NPM.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    The point of the article above is that the 'Organ' has been used as the sacred instrument for the Roman Rite. It had to go through 'purification period' as it says. No matter how the organ is used before, it is the sacred instrument declared by the Church even today. (how the organ used before it was chosen for the liturgy doesn't make the organ less sacred. Is St. Augustine less holy because he was such a great sinner before his conversion?)

    And no other instruments cannot REPLACE it by someone's taste. I believe 'you may add other appropriate instruments' is a different concept than replcacing it, like P&W band does.
    The following page in the same article talks about "guitar mass,' which I think is very insightful. (Page 20 "Vatican II and Sacred Music" by Kurt Poterack. http://www.musicasacra.com/publications/sacredmusic/pdf/sm125-4.pdf)
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,464
    I think I created a monster...
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    No, you didn't. I wonder what happened to organ and use of other instruments in liturgy after Renaissance period.