Who is still using the ICEL English Chant Mass?
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,549
    If not, why did you stop?

    Or did you never use it?
  • Matthew
    Posts: 31
    Still using it for funeral masses as it seems to most easily accessible for out-of-town folks.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 351
    We follow our bishop's request that it is used for Children's Masses (the children in the RC primary schools are taught it) and for celebrations like Station Masses when several parishes get together. The bishop wants the ICEL Mass to be the default choice in the diocese.
  • Carol
    Posts: 554
    We use it for our OF Masses nearly all the time, often the Agnus Dei is in Latin while all the rest is in English. We don't ever use the ICEL Gloria. We use a Gloria my husband composed and arranged for SABaritones or the Heritage Mass Gloria.

    When visiting another parish, I find Mass parts to be the most challenging since they are not posted or announced in most places. So I spend a lot of time trying to figure out which Mass setting is being used. This seems to me to be a valid reason to use ICEL when combining parishes and makes it an excellent idea to teach to the children.
    Thanked by 1Viola
  • Andrew Malton
    Posts: 816
    We used it during Advent and Lent last year and probably will again this year (the rest of the time we mostly sing Orbis Factor as Englished by Fr Kelly).

    We use it because it is easy and familiar and the likeliest to be sung also by the congregation. It isn't quite sustaining enough to be used all the year long. I switch to it to mark the change in season, and the simplicity of those chants seems to fit the Penitential seasons. (Yes, there are wonderful Gregorian ordinaries for Advent and Lent but we are not there yet.)

    Some people do not tolerate even a tiny bit of chant. Like gluten, I guess. I insist on singing "Kyrie" not "Lord" ... and on using the second ending that descends to the final. Even that gets (got) "weird, can't sing it, sing something with a tune" etc etc from some people.

    In Canada the Missal Gloria is not the ICEL one, as many forum members already know. The Canadian chant Gloria is a quite singable piece of modern plainsong.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,641
    We do the Kyrie very rarely at Daily Mass and the Gloria at the less-Solemn weekend Masses during Ordinary Time.

    I've attached a copy of our choir Order of Mass and Kyriale that singers use to make their way through the Sung Mass and the congregational settings of the Ordinary we use.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,494
    I have used it exclusively since 2011. The pastor says it is free, simple, and consistent. He doesn't want to spend $10k on new hymnals, since our Ritual Songs are in good shape and still functional as hymnals.
  • SarahJ
    Posts: 52
    We used it during Lent this year, the parish people were not very familiar with it. Hope to bring it back again during Advent.
  • donr
    Posts: 942
    I used it last year during Ordinary Time. I will do it again this year but not as much as last year, possibly between Christmas and Lent.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,633
    We use it for Sundays after Pentecost at the parish where I cantor semi-regularly. Otherwise it's the Heritage.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,583
    We've never used it, except for the first ("We proclaim") and third ("Save us Savior") forms of the acclamation at "The Mystery of Faith" (Advent/Lent and Per Annum, respectively; Christmas/Easter is "Mortem tuam"). We were using Latin (or Greek) exclusively for Kyrie, Sanctus, & Agnus for about 20 years before MR3 came out, so we just continued. For the Glory to God, we simply ICEL-ated the setting we had been using (Mozarabic chant from The Hymnal 1982), later we added Ralph Bednarz's mode vi setting (during Christmas/Easter the Gloria is sung in Latin). When sung, the Paternoster is in Latin. We probably had the smoothest MR3 transition in the Diocese.
    Thanked by 1Joseph Mendes
  • janetgorbitzjanetgorbitz
    Posts: 920
    My choir (one of five at our parish) uses it very consistently at our parish most of the time. We did use the Jubilate Deo chants during Lent this year and have occasionally used Mass VIII and XVII, but the people know the ICEL Missal chants best of all the chant settings. The other choirs use Missa "My Little Pony", Misa Luna, and Heritage.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,549
    Missa Meus Marvos Equus, no?
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • MarkB
    Posts: 325
    I don't care for the ICEL Gloria at all. ICEL's Eucharistic acclamations are acceptable, but not great.

    If you're going to chant the Gloria, there are so many more beautiful options in Latin than the ICEL English setting, and a couple of them aren't much more difficult to learn than ICEL's dreary setting.

    Then, too, if you're considering chanting any of the ICEL settings of the ordinaries, I think you might as well take the little bit of extra time to learn and chant a more pleasing Latin setting.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw Carol francis
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 548
    Tell you what... we had a major program screwup at a wedding I just played. It was supposed to be the Proulx Missa Simplex. Since the congregation had no resources, we defaulted to ICEL. The participation was wonderful and the effect quite beautiful. I have had a bit of a mind change. It is a solid, singable, official and common setting for the English language Mass.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,494
    I have no problem with the ICEL. Some musicians, who tend to look for something new, tell me it is boring. I tell them that if they want excitement, strip off their clothing and run down the street. Their lives will get a lot more interesting as soon as the cops catch them.
  • ELapisardi
    Posts: 25
    Currently, the Catholic Chapel at West Point uses the ICEL Chant Mass and Heritage Mass; we are hoping to introduce at least one additional setting in the fall (I've only been here since January). We're moving incrementally in a more traditional direction, and the ICEL has worked well as part of that process.
    Thanked by 2SarahJ janetgorbitz
  • roy2
    Posts: 13
    For the past 3-4 years, we have been using the Holy Holy and We proclaim your Death, for about two-thirds of the year. Unaccompanied during Advent and Lent; accompanied at other times of the year.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,737
    Their lives will get a lot more interesting as soon as the cops catch them.
    I think their lives will get a lot more interesting long before the cops arrive.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • 2014-2015 I used it at the parish in which I was director. It took some repetition, the Gloria in particular, and clear modeling, but the congregation grew to know it and, I think, appreciate it.

    The Gloria certainly grew on me, as I worked on making it more fluid. I highly recommend you take some time with your parish to give it a try, or a second try, or even a third! It can be done well, and open them up to more chant!
    Thanked by 1SarahJ
  • The ICEL Gloria, if sung by everyone straight through, can be mindnumbing. But, if sung antiphonally and with Jeff Ostrowski's creative accompaniment--with all those delicious harmonies--this Gloria has a compelling momentum. It is really quite rhythmic.
    Thanked by 2SarahJ toddevoss
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,494
    The good thing about the ICEL setting is its simplicity and that it is so easily learned. I am not one of those musicians who wants novelty, but predictability. When the pastor enters he knows exactly what will happen next with no surprises. I have noticed the congregation is singing the ICEL without using print copies, which seems a good thing to me.
    Thanked by 3Liam a_f_hawkins SarahJ
  • The Vicar General sings an English-language Mass at the chancery chapel at noon on the third Tuesdays from Sept-May; and the Order of Mass from ICEL's The Roman Missal: Third Edition (RM3) has been used exclusively. On the rare occasions where a Gloria is called for, the RM3 adaptation of Gloria XV is sung; on the rarer occasions where a Credo is prescribed, the RM3 adaptation of Credo III is sung.

    I believe the trick to its gaining traction is for the leaders to establish and maintain a relatively quick pace (unscientifically, ~50–70% of spoken tempo). This is critical especially for weekday Masses like those described above, where many attend during a fixed lunch break. (Yes, homilies are abbreviated as well.)
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 753
    Use it all the time in one of my parishes. just going to introduce the gloria, antiphonally, then we will have it all done.
    Thanked by 1janetgorbitz
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 320
    I use the Sanctus and Save Us Savior from the ICEL chants, and the Greek Kyrie and Latin Agnus Dei with them. Like many others I'm not a fan of the ICEL Gloria setting. I learned and taught the revision of John Lee's Congregational Mass Gloria to the parish, with the intention of it being familiar for our children's choir for a Pueri Cantores festival trip that never materialized. Now we're kind of stuck with it.

    I use the chants besides the Gloria for Advent, Lent, and funerals, and I incorporate them with the Gloria for the summer months of Ordinary Time. I'll sprinkle in the Lee Gloria at other times of the year, including solemnities and feasts during Advent and Lent, Holy Thursday, and some other OT Sundays.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 814
    We use the ICEL chant settings at our parish. And we use the Latin settings during Advent and Lent
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • PolskaPiano
    Posts: 164
    I am interested in the Gloria that Canada uses. Is there a link online?
  • Andrew Malton
    Posts: 816
    The Canadian Gloria was previously discussed including music downloads and lots of typical MusicaSacra forum commentary.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,633
    Their lives will get a lot more interesting as soon as the cops catch them.

    I think their lives will get a lot more interesting long before the cops arrive.



    They'll probably get an offer to direct music at those "clothing optional" Lutheran churches Garrison Keillor used to talk about so much.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 802
    I agree that Jeff O’s accompaniment to the Gloria is a good one. I wish they’d adapted a different melody for the Missal, and I wish the rest of the propers weren’t the Requiem Mass, but it is what it is.

    We put far too much effort into our service music. Settings of the Ordinary for congregations should be solid, simple, singable, and few. Ideally workable a capella.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,637
    We use it during Advent, Lent, and for funerals.
  • RPBurke
    Posts: 23
    In our diocese it was dismissed as poorly constructed, crudely jamming an English text into a tune built for a Latin text. I have not heard it anywhere here, but the "official" Mass in Honor of St. Benedict is used occasionally. I did not attend the recent ordination, which occurred at a very large new parish church rather than at the smaller cathedral, so I don't know what they used for a diocese-wide liturgy, however.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,641
    The Mass in Honor of St. Benedict was a good compromise - Thornock was great for pushing for it.
  • Last I heard chant was banned at my parish except when the deacon chants his kyrie and dismissal. They have a real how-dare-you attitude.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,137
    That is wildly disappointing.
  • So are his homilies. Ba-dum tssssss.
    Wish that was a joke.
  • Settefrati93
    Posts: 175
    Continuousbass - I thought I was the only one. We were doing just fine with the simple English propers along side hymns & the occasional motet. One day I’m told 5 minutes before mass “no antiphons no chant no Latin”
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,494
    One of the bad things after Vatican II has been the, I think, over-emphasis on homilies. One would think we had become Protestants with our worship centered on sermons. As the paraphrase goes:

    Arise from your slumber,
    Awake from your sleep.
    The homily's over,
    It wasn't too deep.


    Many homilies are not worth giving, much less listened to. I have decided learning to preach is not a priority in the seminaries, since so many priests and deacons can't do it effectively.

    Effectively, the sermon has become a center of worship with a 20-minute ramble the norm. Wait, the peace greeting is first in importance, the sermon second, and the 3-minute consecration 3rd.

    I have run into situations where a rambling homily took so much time singing the "Lamb of God" was dropped because the mass was already running overtime.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CharlesW, aside from marveling that it was that it was that long ago already, I sent a lot of emails to diocesan liturgy offices if they did not have any news about the new translation. I also got on listserves. One message: a new hymnal is not needed. I remember someone posted a booklet here (which could not be downloaded outside the diocese's physical confines) that a diocese in Ohio had put together. They had gotten the clearances to print I think 5 settings, with the instruction that the booklet was to be printed and put in pews, exactly to avoid buying new hymnals. I am glad to hear of dioceses or parishes who avoided that pitfall.

    Kenneth
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,494
    Kenneth, we are still over $1 million in debt because of the former pastor's spending beyond our means. Buying the number of hymnals we would need would approach $10 thousand dollars. We don't have it and don't want to add to our debt load. The ICEL chants are free, easily learned, and work throughout the liturgical year. The old hymnal still has perfectly good hymns, or at least enough of them to get by, and can still be used for a few more years.

    They had gotten the clearances to print I think 5 settings, with the instruction that the booklet was to be printed and put in pews, exactly to avoid buying new hymnals. I am glad to hear of dioceses or parishes who avoided that pitfall.


    Yeah, we had some of those chancery lifers who wanted us to use Misa Luna. We said, "H" no.
  • $1 million!! That's a lot of spending. I must say the experience of life in the Archdiocese of Washington is rather different than it is perceived outside the Archdiocese. Cardinal "Uncle Ted" McCarrick instituted a systematic attempt to have parishes get their financial houses in order. My own parish skated up to the brink and really had to work to get everything back in line. A mistake such as the one you mentioned places a burden on the faithful for many years to come.

    Kenneth
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,494
    $1 million!! That's a lot of spending.


    It was over $2 million when the new pastor took over 4 years ago. We are making progress, but are on a really tight budget.
    Thanked by 1amindthatsuits
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,137
    And just when the new pastor pays off all the debts, he'll get moved, never to see the benefits of his prudent fiscal leadership.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,494
    And just when the new pastor pays off all the debts, he'll get moved, never to see the benefits of his prudent fiscal leadership.


    Often the case, to be sure. This guy will be retired by then since he only has a few years left before he retires.
  • Settefrati93,
    I had a great priest tell me those who are dismissive of chant and the propers are in sin. Then I had a popular priest tell me that great priest was an idiot. Those are some rare folk I tell you.
    Thanked by 1Settefrati93
  • In the CharlesW diocese, a priest (who was proud that they didn't have have a budget and no one had ever taken of advantage! TO which I said mentally, "how woudl you know?) left a parish after letting people go because there was no money and the new pastor discovered $300,000 hidden in an account the priest was never told about "in case they ever needed a new roof."

    Eventually, it had been reported that 1.5 million was found, all kept secret from the pastor by staunch leaders of the parish. (can you pronounce KofC).

    The patients are truly running the asylum. And they can be vicious.

    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,494
    I have said many times, there is accounting, then there is Catholic accounting.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,347
    Too bad cooking the books doesn't lead to booking the crooks.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,349
    Although GIA asked me to write an accompaniment for the ICEL chants, I have always found several elements in them to be compositionally poor. The Gloria becomes tedious after repeated use. The opening of the Holy, Holy is positively ludicrous in English: Ho-lee-hee, ho-lee-hee... Fr. Chrysogonus Waddell (who did most of the chant settings in the 1974 Sacramentary), and Fr. Columba Kelly (who composed most of the so-called St. Meinrad chants and should have composed the chants in the 2010 English edition of the Roman Missal) both had the wisdom to see that plastering the English text on to the beginning notes of Sanctus XVIII just does not work.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,494
    I use the Charles Thatcher accompaniments from WLP. They are the only ones I have found that actually complement the chants and don't attract attention to themselves. I have seen a number of accompaniments by others that are dissonant, have wonky chords that clearly don't belong in chant, or which try to be performance music rather than accompaniments.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • toddevoss
    Posts: 128
    ronkrisman...I wonder if the ICEL Sanctus opening would not be quite as awkward if it was just sung: Ho-oh-lee, ho-oh-lee. That seems a bit better to me. But just a bit. The Sanctus is short enough that it is not much harder to just sing the Latin which works better to that chant.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW