Help: Weekdays Responsorial Psalm in Latin: Verses in English
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Question:
    I can't think of the right book to find the Latin text (Novus Ordo) for the responsorial Psalm for Weekday Masses. Not to mention any musical settings for the response (is it even called an antiphon?) in Latin. I Suppose I could look at the old LU for the Gradual, but that is often not the same text as the Resp. Psalm.
    I will have to arrange something, but any suggestions would be helpful!
  • RevAMG
    Posts: 162
    The psalm response itself would be in the Ordo Lectionum Missae. The full text of the response and its verses would be in the Latin-language Lectionary. If you need a copy out of that, message me and I can provide a scan.

    Another option would be to use one of the Mass formularies from the Graduale Simplex. Be aware, however, that the responsorial psalms are arranged differently than in the Lectionary. The Simplex’s psalms begin with a verse (not the response) and then the response follows. This pattern is followed for all the verses (of which only five are required).
    Thanked by 2Paul F. Ford M. Jackson Osborn
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    In other words, it would have to be a lectionary companion for the 1962 missal correct?
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Thank you, Rev AMG, I hadn't thought of the Simplex.
    Can you instruct me as to what pages of the Simplex would correspond for the Psalm for next Tuesday, April 17th?
    Thank you.
  • RevAMG
    Posts: 162
    No, if you want the Novus Ordo text, it would be in the Lectionarium for the Ordinary Form. That is the Latin-language Lectionary. There is no "official" musical setting; you could set it to any Gregorian Psalm Tone. The Graduale Simplex does have psalm formularies with chant notation, but they are formularies, not specific to each day/Mass.
  • RevAMG
    Posts: 162
    For any Mass in the Easter Season, you can use either of the Easter Mass formularies in the Graduale Simplex: page 166 or page 173. These formularies use the "Psalmus alleluiaticus"—For a weekday Mass, you use this after the First Reading in place of the both the responsorial psalm and the alleluia verse. Only five verses are required.
    Thanked by 2Paul F. Ford Andrew_Malton
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Thank you!
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    I am still mystified.
    I looked in the Lectionarium, and I cannot find the text for that weekday. I see refrains, but no other texts.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    The Lectionarium includes texts of both refrain and verses for all the weekday psalms. For example, the resp. psalm for next Tuesday, Feria II of the 3rd week of Easter, can be found in vol. II on p. 446:

    Psalmus responsorius
    Ps 30, 3cd-4. 6ab et 7b et 8a. 17 et 21ab (R/ 6a)
    R./ In manus tuas, Domine, commendo spiritum meum.
    vel Alleluia.

    Esto mihi in rupem praesidii,
    et in domum munitam, ut salvum me facias.
    Quoniam fortitudo mea et refugium meum es tu,
    et propter nomen tuum deduces me et pasces me. R./

    In manus tuas commendo spiritum meum;
    redemisti me, Domine, Deus veritatis.
    Ego autem in Domino speravi.
    Exsultabo et laetabor in misericordia tua. R./

    Illustra faciem tuam super servum tuum,
    salvum me fac in misericordia tua.
    Abscondes eos in abscondito faciei tuae
    a conturbatione hominum. R./

    BTW, the Daily Roman Missal published by the Midwest Theological Forum includes antiphons in both English and Latin for all the responsorial psalms in the lectionary, with verses in English.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Many thanks!
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    Since you ask, the recurring response in Responsorial Psalmody isn't and is not ever correctly called an 'antiphon' - it is called the Respond or the Responsory, or perhaps just The Response. There are other examples of responsorial song that are not psalmody, the Advent and Lenten Proses being examples. And, of course, there are the responsories in the Divine Office.

    Only Antiphonal Psalmody has Antiphons.

    Except that there are some 'Antiphons' that are independent pieces, unattached to any psalm or other music, Hosanna filio David for the Rite of Palms on Palm Sunday being a case in point.
    Thanked by 2rich_enough ghmus7
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 776
    I might add, however, that the GI allows for the direct singing of the responsorial psalm with the respond at the beginning and end, which would indeed make it an antiphon. So, it is not the genre per se, but the mode of singing it that determines the nomenclature.

    There are modern hand missals that include daily liturgical short texts in both Latin and English, including the responsorial psalm (along with entrance and communion antiphons, and other special ritual texts; these are Missal texts, not Gradual texts). One can only assume (which is probably not all that wise) that these are official texts. When I can recall the name of one of these hand missals, I will post it.
    Thanked by 3Andrew_Malton CHGiffen ghmus7
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Jackson,

    Is it possible (or even historically demonstrated) that Hosanna Filio David had, at one point, antiphonally sung verses?
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    In response to Richard -

    A psalm sung with a responsory only at the beginning and the end of the verses with a cantor or cantors singing the verses is still a Responsorial Psalm. To make it Antiphonal, one would have to have two opposing groups of people singing alternate verses with the Antiphon interspersed throughout or sung before and after them.

    Antiphonal singing by two opposing groups = an Antiphon
    Responsrial singing between cantor(s) and group = a Responsory
    In Directum singing = Sung by all throughout with neither Ant. nor Resp.

    Chris -
    It is possible, even likely.
    Thanked by 1ghmus7
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    I fear that battle is lost. Thus Merriam-Webster:
    Definition of antiphon
    1 : a psalm, anthem, or verse sung responsively
    2 : a verse usually from Scripture said or sung before and after a canticle, psalm, or psalm verse as part of the liturgy
    This morphing has been going on a long time, e.g. The Marian Antiphons. And -
    Origin and Etymology of anthem
    Middle English antem, from Old English antefn, from Late Latin antiphona, from Late Greek antiphōna, plural of antiphōnon, from Greek, neuter of antiphōnos responsive, from anti- + phōnē sound —
    The Roman Missal even (mis)uses the word to identify the alternative spoken texts for entrance and communion, which are versicles unsupported by any response!
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Yes, don't count on any official books after VII to correctly identify form and Nomenaclature...it really is a mess.
    Case in point: What is a "Hymn"? in Gregorian use, it had a specific form meaning, and in protestant use, it has a specific meaning. Not so for Catholics, who use that term for any kind of musical form, rendering it meaningless.
    and let's not even go to the "official" English name for the music for the procession as translated by GIRM
    - "Opening Song" !!!
    What is that?
    Who created this mess?
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    Side note: the Marian antiphons in the Vatican Edition of the Antiphonale Romanum (not the simple tones, which aren't to be found there) are marked with double bars, which indicates that they can or should be sung between alternating groups, antiphonally.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Thanks to all!
  • Dixit_Dominus_44
    Posts: 195
    M. Jackson Osborn wrote:

    the recurring response in Responsorial Psalmody isn't and is not ever correctly called an 'antiphon'


    M. Jackson, I understand the argument you're attempting to put forward here, but unless you can cite sources backing up your claim, I'm going to stick with the dictionary definition (cf. a_f_hawkins above).

    I think you may have in mind “antiphonal singing.”
    Thanked by 1Andrew_Malton
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