• Has it been confirmed that the Gloria Patri will be translated as “Glory be....world without end. Amen.” in the new LoTH translation?
  • Good!
    I have ever thought that plain 'Glory to...' was more than a tad presumptuous and off-the-cuff.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,265
    Well, if the bishops use their newly granted power to step a bit away from a lockstep approach to implementing Liturgicam Authenicam, one might see them embracing the more customary English rendering of the Gloria Patri - which rendering is, of course, not accurate in Liturgicam Authenticam terms ("world without end" would be right out under LA, for example).
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 237
    I've heard that Cardinal Sean of Boston made a special request that with the new LOH translation, "we could start saying the Gloria Patri like the rest of the English-speaking world."
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 734
    Interesting to see note that the bishops initialy were inclined to rubber stamp starting work (217 - 3). But after one intervention to voice concern about the linguistic style of LA, many changed their minds and voted 189 - 41. (1 abstention each time)
    Also 'it should take 3 to 5 years'.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,265
    AFH

    This 2015 USCCB newsletter explains why the project turned out to be bigger than expected in 2012:

    http://www.usccb.org/about/divine-worship/newsletter/upload/newsletter-2015-03.pdf

    And the timeline slipped further since 2015. I believe the initial USCCB-level vote may occur later this year, rather than the final vote as expected in 2015, but I could be wrong about that.
    Thanked by 2a_f_hawkins CHGiffen
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 237
    I've got to say I'm sort of dreading the new translation, mainly because I have quite a few of the old Grail psalms, as well as the old ICEL Benedictus and Magnificat, committed to memory. Even if the translations are better, I guarantee I won't like them.
    Thanked by 1MarkS
  • I can sympathise with Deacon Fritz - that's just how I feel when I'm where Old Church English is not in use. Another reason to sing a Te Deum for the Ordinariate.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Another reason to sing a Te Deum for the Ordinariate.
    in Latin.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • In Latin - well... alright... in addition to Old Church English.

    (It isn't widely known that the BCP was printed in Latin as well as English. The Latin version was widely used at university collegiate chapels and other learned places where Latin was understood.) (Even a lowly public school boy of an hundred years ago knew more Latin than a modern 'PhD', who isn't likely to know any.)
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,265
    (Even a lowly public school boy of an hundred years ago knew more Latin than a modern 'PhD', who isn't likely to know any.)

    True, but the world has changed so the importance of that is much less than it was 100 years ago.
  • A good example of a non sequitur -

    ...the world has changed so (ergo) the importance of that is much less...
    Thanked by 2WGS francis
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 744
    not likely to be implemented before 2020


    Perhaps 2030? Or maybe 3030?
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,265
    My "so" was more in the spirit of "so that" or "such that". No major matter. I value the classics (I studied Latin in college, after 9 years of Spanish in public school, where Latin was not on offer back when - we started mandatory foreign modern language instruction at age 9), but can't pretend they have retained the kind of importance they once had. We live in a world where lack of fluency in computer coding is considered a form of illiteracy, and Latin ceased to be an essential language of the sciences and learning, outside Western humanities, generations ago, and even within the humanities would have to share space, as it were, with Mandarin and Arabic and other great civilizational languages in a globalized educational world (I can't help but think of a former colleague of mine who has a son who double-majored in Japanese and Arabic, while he was already fluent in English, German, Mandarin and Cantonese due to his familial upbringing and ties). World War I destroyed many things, including the purchase of Western civilization as the world's measure - it's just taken a century (and more) to see the residue of that shake out in all of its awfulness (for example, we've not yet witnessed a resolution to the wind-down of the Ottoman Empire).
    Thanked by 1igneus
  • Liam, I accept your 'explanation'. The situation as you outline it is indeed 'the world we live in' and in which we must make our several contributions as how we may. So, it isn't, really, so much that the world has changed by the need to know Cantonese and Mandarin, Arabic and Russian, be computer literate and so on, but that there is no compulsion to, at the same time, jettison our own culture as if it were irrelevant and unimportant. We are fools if we think that in catering to new realities we must deny our own historic realities as if they were an embarrassment in the 'modern' world. We, The West, are, in fact, the ONLY civilisation and culture on the planet that is committing suicide in the foolish fever of blending in with new-old im-moralities, new world powers, etc. This, under the influence of our own misguided intellectual elites, has been going on for over a century, with roots, perhaps, in the Enlightenment. There is, it seems to me, a certain masochism in nurturing the conviction that we must relegate Latin and the Western canon of literature, music, and art to history's dustbin - all to fit the template devised for us by culturally bankrupt campus dons, and to please foreign cultures who respect us all the less for our cultural suicide.

    As for the 'wind-down of the Ottoman Empire' which you mention - isn't it passing strange that the Semitic and Turcic races like to blame Britain and France, with the US as a late-comer, for all the ills of the Middle East, whilst blithely overlooking the reality that these ills are the residue of century upon century of Ottoman imperialism (and, we have today a Turkish would-be sultan who likely would like to restore it!). The Middle East is today what it has been since the dawn of history - city-state, tribe, nation, all alike in constant bloody warfare. The only 'peace' that this region has ever had was that enforced by the super-power of the day, whether it be Aegyptian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Ottoman, or European.

  • Liam
    Posts: 3,265
    MJO

    Actually, the Near East is committing cultural suicide even faster than the West. Western dystopianism is an overdone addiction (dystopianism is merely an inverted form of utopianism) with very deep roots in Western culture.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,487
    So should I hold the note before the quilisma or not?
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,265
    I think it depends on your orientation.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 1,457
    In a few centuries the music of so-called Faustian Civilization has gone from a local phenomenon of Northwest Asia (as Lou Harrison always called it) to planetary dominion with exponents like Takemitsu, Yun, Saygün and Hakim. Assuming we're not using the term in the sense appropriated by swastika wavers, it would seem premature to speak of 'suicide'. I doubt too that one can date the beginning of a Decline and Fall to the Enlightenment; Gibbon places it quite a bit earlier, but why stop short of Eden?
  • Ted
    Posts: 135
    Liam:
    Indeed, one has to wonder what "world without end" means. It is certainly not our world. The correct and more ecumenical translation would be "for ages of ages", which is what the Orthodox generally use in English, and is a direct translation of the Latin which many languages use, such as the French.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,265
    Ted

    True, but generation upon generation of popular use has sanctified it and, pace LA, accuracy is not the highest value.
  • tsoapm
    Posts: 72
    one has to wonder what "world without end" means. It is certainly not our world.
    So... a different one? The definitive one?
    The correct and more ecumenical translation would be "for ages of ages"
    I have to wonder what "for ages of ages" means myself. Correct in what sense?

    In Italy it’s nei secoli dei secoli, ‘in(to) the ages of (the) ages’, which looks to me like a literal translation of the Greek.

    I’ve never really understood it.
  • The "age of the ages", like the "holy of holies" is an expression signifying a situation in extremis. -- or at least that's what I was told many moons ago.
    Thanked by 1tsoapm
  • tsoapm
    Posts: 72
    For ever and ever... righto.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 237
    What C G-Z said. It's a Hebraism that signifies a superlative: Song of songs, God of gods, etc. So it is the "greatest" age (saeculum)--i.e. the eighth day of eternity.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,127
    Just like how the papal title "Servant of Servants" means the highest of servants (but nonetheless the servant of whom the greatest is expected), n'est-ce pas?
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 237
    Oui.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 237
    In saecula saeculorumtranslates the Greek τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων. The Greek aion can be translated variously as "age," "aeon" etc. The repetition is a Hebraism, like "holy of holies" or "song of songs" or "god of gods," which was a way of forming a superlative--e.g. the "holy of holies" is the holiest part of the Temple,YHWH is the "god of gods" because he is the greatest (indeed only) god. So in saecula saeculorum refers to the world's final day or age, not in the sense of the day of judgement, but of the eighth day that has no end. While it is a literal translation, I'm not sure "ages of ages" conveys the sense of eternity very well. In that regard, I think the traditional "world without end" isn't bad.
    Thanked by 1tsoapm