"Father Z: Help Wanted"
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,554
    One notes that Fr. Z. could be sued by the Feds or the State of Wisconsin. Using the adjective "young" has been illegal in want-ads since about 1972 or so.

    We get the picture, but simply saying "cheap" would not cause legal firestorm.
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  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 715
    Interesting.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,554
    Looks like Ann Arbor has an opening....
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,332
    Words like could, might, make it more of an inquiry than a concrete job ad. Besides, churches get away with murder, at least where treatment of musicians is concerned.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,554
    So if he asked for a "young, white, male" for the job.....can you IMAGINE the reaction?

    Yes, it's not a formal want ad. No, it doesn't make any difference to Western Civilization.

    Except the "We want somebody really CHEAP" part....yes, abuse is rampant.
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  • JonathanLCJonathanLC
    Posts: 37
    I do not really see the cheap part - does young necessarily mean cheap? I'm offended! *sarcasm* Someone who has these skills and are young would come at quite a price tag on my side of the world. When the clergy start talking about "stipends" rather than a job offer or salary, we know that low pay is on the way. Our version of the AGO (SAKOV) has a certain set of requirements depending on education. These are respected by the Dutch Reformed communities, but not by us Catholics, sadly.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,554
    does young necessarily mean cheap?


    In the USA, that's 99% "yes." It's the same gambit used by any other employer, but they shroud it in this way: "......2-3 years' experience.....", which makes it legal.

    Either way, the real meaning is: Cheap.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • Gamba
    Posts: 82
    But everything on Z’s blog is of unspeakable importance to western civilization....,
  • JonathanLCJonathanLC
    Posts: 37
    @dad29 -
    In the USA, that's 99% "yes."


    I am sad to hear it!
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,482
    does young necessarily mean cheap?


    Definitely not.

    It's a way of saying they would like a "young" musician, just like wanting a "young" priest out of seminary who has a vision of change, not having been beaten to submission and accepted that things are not going to ever change and he/she's got to get on with it without a chance over ever making great music at a faithful liturgy.

    "Young" people are also the ones who are valued by the Protestan parishes when they bring their superior understanding and knowledge of liturgy and litugical music to the non-Catholic world when they abandon catholic parishes where they are browbeaten by un-trained unmusical volunteer cantors who often polish their skills at getting Father's ear.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,554
    Noel, when did you become Pollyanna?

    Aside from "cheap," "young" also means someone who can be told what to do because they don't know any better based on education and/or experience. The term 'young and dumb' is based on truth, ya'know.

    Your assumption is that priests are granted infused knowledge of Catholic church music because they have a collar, or something. I can tell you without question or doubt that it ain't true--and even those priests who THINK they know something are often wrong, or to be polite, un-informed.

    He is risen, indeed!!

  • dad29
    Posts: 1,554
    everything on Z’s blog is of unspeakable importance to western civilization


    Sorry. I forgot that.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,482
    Aside from "cheap," "young" also means someone who can be told what to do because they don't know any better based on education and/or experience. The term 'young and dumb' is based on truth, ya'know.


    "Young" and willing to take chances and not listen to the staid stick-in-the-mud old people.

    If the job was working for on the cheap or for "free" it could have been listed as an internship.

    Your assumption is that priests are granted infused knowledge of Catholic church music because they have a collar, or something. I can tell you without question or doubt that it ain't true--and even those priests who THINK they know something are often wrong, or to be polite, un-informed
    .

    I can't argue with that and agree 100%.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,290
    Your assumption is that priests are granted infused knowledge of Catholic church music because they have a collar, or something.


    Brings to mind a footnote from the Fortescue/O'Connell/Nichols page-turner The Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described. Concerning Palm Sunday it says:

    "There is no authority for anyone below the rank of deacon to sing the Passion."

    Which prompted me to write in the margins:

    "There is also no authority for anyone above the rank of deacon to be unable to sing."

    You know, Charles, for all the grief I give you Easterners, you did one thing right by this - never ordaining the tone-deaf.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,290
    I mean, come on - if priests can spend most of their days blogging (after saying mass and reciting the Divine Office, one hopes!) he certainly has enough time to learn how to sing, correct?

    *Not that Fr. Z doesn't know how to sing. Heavens no. I had the distinct pleasure of hearing him sing "The Church's One Foundation is B-I-N-G-O" in its entirety at an Una Voce conference. Life-changing experience.
  • I am no fan of Fr. Zuhlsdorf and believe he harms the Catholic Church in many ways.

    That being said, I find what's written above (criticizing the ad for a “young” musician) to be beyond absurd and baseless.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,554
    Well, "Dixit," you could spend a profitable 10 minutes reviewing employment law, or take it from someone who has dealt with it actively for 30 years, like me.

    As to the merits of Fr. Z., I think that he has a number of qualities.
  • One notes that Fr. Z. could be sued by the Feds or the State of Wisconsin. Using the adjective "young" has been illegal in want-ads since about 1972 or so. We get the picture, but simply saying "cheap" would not cause legal firestorm.


    How about we meet halfway?

    If you can find a judge willing to hear such a case against Fr. Zuhlsdorf (you won't be able to) then I'll allow you to tell me how to spend my time.

    :-)
  • Dixit_Dominus,

    Rather than take up space and try everyone's patience, could you send me a private message about why/how you think Fr. Zuhlsdorf does great harm to the Church?
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,554
    Troll, troll, troll your boat.....
  • There’s no need to be secretive about Fr. Z since arguments against him are publicly aired. I find the more interesting objections those being voiced by some EF sympathizers: he weakens his evangelizing effectiveness by unnecessarily demeaning opponents (in other words, he too often writes to amuse and confirm those already holding his point of view while shutting off those he wants to convert); he too easily fuses theological with political views (his uncritical support of the NRA being a case in point) and his silence on the odious behavior of Donald Trump continues to baffle.

    Broader criticisms tend to focus on his never having experienced the trials of everyday parish life because he’s never held a diocesan parish assignment. One objection even he recently acknowledged is a penchant for posting photos of delicious meals enjoyed on trips while neglecting to mention his life style is being paid for by donor contributions. I’ve been tempted to buy him a membership in a gym to counter those high calorie repasts.

    Having said all the above, I confess to being a regular reader of his blog.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,436
    "fuses theological with political views ... his silence"

    That pattern goes back to shutting down intra-Catholic combox questioning of the morality of waterboarding back during the GWB administration. It was not a profile in courage. No one's perfect, and only in Hell should we be reduced to our worst selves. My major beef with blogs of his type (btw, I don't mean his specific views - I've witnessed the type across the viewpoint spectrum) is that they are designed to cultivate an audience by the stroking of anxiety (that's the technique of enterpreneurial consumer capitalism, even if the market is one of ideas rather than goods, services and experiences), and anxiety (which is different from fear or proper care) is ultimately at war with fruitful Christian discipleship. Chronic anxiety saps hope and the related peace and joy of discipleship, and we should take care to avoid getting attached to things that stroke it. Fr Z does not have the actual charge of pastoral care of a real flock, so I am less bothered by his indulging of this than with an actual pastor - he's a freelancing lone ranger, as it were - and the faithful have to take their own share of responsibility for not gratifying the indulgence on their part.
  • Chonak,

    Since Fr. Zuhlsdorf's merits or faults are - it seems to me - significantly beyond the scope of this discussion forum, could you intervene to move this portion of the conversation elsewhere, or to shut it down?
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,332
    Fr. Z is something of a sacred cow in some quarters. I don't know whether to be glad I never read him nor care about him, or to learn a bit more about him.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,436
    To turn back from his blog generally to its topical connection to the original take on the post: I doubt Fr Z is in trouble in Wisconsin under its current state administration.
  • Fr. Z is something of a sacred cow in some quarters. I don't know whether to be glad I never read him nor care about him, or to learn a bit more about him.


    The problem with Fr. Z, I think, is deceptively simple. He tells a lot of people overwhelmingly what they want to hear. If there's one thing I learned as a journalist, it's this: when someone tells you only what you want to hear, that's when you should be most skeptical of what they have to say.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 3,436
    "If there's one thing I learned as a journalist, it's this: when someone tells you only what you want to hear, that's when you should be most skeptical of what they have to say."

    Right, at least for good journalists, but consumers are willing to pay (at least with their attention...which can be monetized as matters currently in the news bear witness) for that. And, whether someone is pushing goods, services, experiences or ideas, they want consumers.

    That said, Fr Z's request that prompted this thread was not one of those things...
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 632
    I had to quit reading Fr. Z. He's much too angry.
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  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 1,382
    Whit all this Fr. Z criticism, how long will it be before somebody again labels us St. Louis Jesuits fans? :-)
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  • Liam
    Posts: 3,436
    Well, there are select works from that group that I can and do appreciate from time to time, but that would be O/T.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,554
    Well, if it helps, I belong to the 'home parish' of one of the Jebs--the one now living in San Francisco. Indirectly knew a couple of others through a friend who left the Order after only 2 years in the same facility as those guys were. He couldn't stand them.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Okay, I know I'll hear "Anathema, sit."
    I knew and accompanied all five of them back in the seventies (I was in El Cerrito when three of them were at GTU, on the record, NPM 1979).
    All of them were gentlemen and very pleasant to be around.
    Foley was quite insightful about composition, despite my thinking my scholastic background far exceeded his.
    Dufford delivered the news of my third child's birth whilst we were at NPM; he was genuinely "honored" to be the one doing that.
    Dad, there's no need to throw shade on them personally.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 7,892
    melo

    Please enlighten us composers about the insights. I left the Peabody Conservatory back in 1981 (and to do so, I stood up at the master class and announced it) "because I am still learning to compose music on the staff."

    Well, wonder of wonders... a decade later 'minimalism' was discovered, just like the single cell amoeba had emerged from the ocean and was breathing new life to the musical world.

    btw... A single celled brain is called a pea.

    sorry for the sarcasm... can't take the rubbish any longer nor any more excuses for TSLJ.

    sorry digging a rabbit hole too.

    btw... I read Fr. Z every so often.

    (purple) Jeffrey, this is all your fault for bringing up the subject.

  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 715
    I do read (from time to time) and appreciate Fr. Zuhlsdorf's writings.
    I also greatly prefer the TLM to the Novus Ordo, and prefer the clarity with which priests who celebrate the TLM preach and catechize. *shrug*
    But, I'm not sure what all these opinions have to do with his call to people knowledgeable and excited about sacred music and Gregorian chant.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,308
    (Moving this thread to the category: "General Discussion: Catholicism")
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,554
    Dad, there's no need to throw shade on them personally.


    Did I? I must have missed that. Relaying the thoughts of a friend of mine--and without any specifics? Hmmm.

    Clarification: I don't know the men. They could be just dandy. Don't care.

    Will not use their music before, during, or after a Mass. Perhaps for a devotion or something....