Seeking plainsong introit for St Cecilia's day, Loquebar de testimoniis tuis
  • Mathrafal
    Posts: 6
    Dear All,

    I am currently editing a couple of 17th-century French organ masses and am in search of a plainsong setting of the introit for St Cecelia's day, Loquebar de testimoniis tuis. I wonder if anyone knows of a source for this, which thus far has eluded me completely!

    My thanks in advance.

    JB
    Thanked by 2JonathanLC M. Jackson Osborn
  • JonathanLCJonathanLC
    Posts: 75
    Here is a lead:

    https://escience-center.uni-tuebingen.de/gregorien/chant/id/4978/1/en

    Graduale Triplex , Moines de Solesmes, 1979 p.526 - unfortunately I do not have a copy of the Triplex, but I am sure that there is someone else here who does to get a copy :)
    Thanked by 1Mathrafal
  • Incardination
    Posts: 832
    For future reference, there is an alphabetical reference at the back of the LU that lists Introits, Graduals, Antiphons, etc., alphabetically.

    Attached from LU.
    Loquebar.PNG
    709 x 811 - 60K
    Thanked by 5StimsonInRehab JonathanLC CHGiffen Mathrafal CCooze
  • Incardination
    Posts: 832
    Mathrafal,

    I should have mentioned that the Liber Usualis (LU) is available online in several locations, including in the CMAA collection. I should also point out another resource that you might find useful for future searches... the Institute of Christ the King has a nice collection of Propers and Mass Ordinaries, including the Propers for a Virgin Martyr, Loquebar.

    http://www.institute-christ-king.org/latin-mass-resources/sacred-music/

    Welcome to the forum!
    Thanked by 1Mathrafal
  • Jeffrey MorseJeffrey Morse
    Posts: 203
    In order to compare it to an authentic piece of Chant, in this case the Loquebar, one should find a 17th century Gradual, as the Chant in the Triplex or the Liber Usualis or the Graduale Romanum would reflect the Chant as it was restored in the late 19th century and early 20th, having very little in common with the Chant as it was in the 17th century- metrical, corrupt and with huge parts of the melody axed in the 16th century. The modern editions will really not hep one in understanding the 17th century French Organ Masses.
    Thanked by 5CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn StimsonInRehab eft94530 Mathrafal
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,417
    This is very interesting.
    Which, or whose, organ masses are you editing, and why.
    The points that Jeffrey makes are cogent.
    Thanked by 1Mathrafal
  • Mathrafal
    Posts: 6
    Thank you all for your kind comments. I have enjoyed reading many threads on this site and defer to the level of expertise that is demonstrated here!

    They are the Couperin masses, which will be released shortly. I have decided to put both into a liturgical context. Why? Well, there is no currently available critical edition. Moroney and Gilbert was the last, which has been out of print for about 20 years. And I suppose because my publisher wants one!

    It has been a very interesting project, so far, especially when trying to sort out the four sources, which have been the subject of a lot of confusion over the last century. I have used, of course, Cuntipotens genitor Deus, using Nivers Graduale Romanum. I would have preferred something in a similar neo-Gallic chant style. For the mass, I have used Paul d'Amance's Messe de Sainte Cécilia, for which Loquebar de testimoniis tuis is suitable as the introitus. However, I am open to suggestions. D'Amance's mass is in Tone VI, which I think works with the Tone VIII of the organ pieces. Again, suggestions are very welcome.

    JB
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,417
    Paul d'Amance was a contemporary of Henri du Mont, maitre de Chapelle-Royal at Versailles. You are right in matching tone 6 plain-chant musical masses with tone 8 organ masses. I am pairing du Mont's tone 6 mass to the Gloria of G Corrette's tone 8 mass for an Eastertide recital in April and it works quite well. I have yet to find a tone 8 plain=chant musical mass to go with tone 8 organ masses.

    I look forward to seeing the fruit of your labours when this project is complete. This may be as important as the new critical edition of de Grigny's Premier livre d'orgue published recently by Wayne Leupold.

    It doesn't seem to me, though, that in preparing a complete chant-organ edition of the mass you must needs limit yourself to St Cecilia propers - nice as it is to so honour one of the patron saints of music.
  • Mathrafal
    Posts: 6
    Well, I understand your misgiving, although the need for a demonstrational mass is quite great among organists. This will, at least, provide a starting point for other settings.

    JB
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,802
    A thread title not easy remember or to search for!

    I put in a request at IMSLP for some relevant books, but you can find facsimiles of the Parish mass in some closer to hand sources such as Keyboard Music Before 1700 edited by Alexander Silbiger.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    A thread title not easy remember or to search for!

    Perhaps the originator will edit this Discussion title
    to be more useful, e.g.,

    17th-century French organ mass(es) in search of a plainsong setting

    [Edited. --admin]
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