Fr. Ruff on the Three Year Lectionary
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,500
    An interesting article:
    http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2018/02/04/too-many-words-in-the-three-year-lectionary/

    I have many thoughts on the three year lectionary vs. the readings as found in the Extraordinary Form... I need to put these down at some point - but now is not the time. There's some sort of sporting event.

    Discuss the article, though.
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • madorganist
    Posts: 308
    I daresay today's TLM Epistle, Gradual, Tract, and Gospel took longer than the First Reading, Responsorial Psalm, Second Reading, Gospel Acclamation, and Gospel of the new rite. I can certainly relate to readings "read too quickly and in a boring, humdrum tone." #1 unfortunately presumes that even in a well-celebrated Mass the scripture will merely be read, not chanted. When it comes to the vernacular, does the novus ordo have nothing to learn from the Eastern Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglicans?
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,409
    Gee. All that and not ONE word about the Propers. Clearly, they are not part of the Mass, nor of any interest to anyone.

    Maybe that's obscure, so here's clarification: if you want to talk about readings from the OT and NT, the Propers just happen to fit that description. And they are not long-and-boring.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,409
    does the novus ordo have nothing to learn from...


    ...the Vetus Ordo?
  • madorganist
    Posts: 308
    ?
  • madorganist
    Posts: 308
    I understand that it is allowed, but I have never encountered chanted vernacular readings in the old rite.
  • I remember that I was much, much more atuned to the one year cycle than the three. There was a certain wonderful rhythm which one experienced year by year; a familiarity with the return of favoured themes and Biblical personalities, not to mention the sanity of seasons rather than the chic vapidness of Ordinary Time.

    With the three year cycle it takes almost a full ten years to experience its flow, its familiar recurrences just two or three times, whereas the old blessed us with a yearly recurrence of scripture and event - a wonderful, very familiar, spiritual and intellectual rhythm. To me, the three year cycle has never (nor I think will it ever) blessed me with that sense of kinship with a certain and particular cycle of events, of language, of collects, of themes, and of personalities. While I understand the rationales for the three year cycle, I will ever resent the loss of the old year in and year out cylce. We have in this, as in so much else, been robbed.

    The only blessing in the new Lectionary has been the restoration of the Old Testament Lesson.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,409
    We agree, MJO. And if they can 'line up' OT readings which bear on the NT readings, so much the better....
  • Sorry to wander a little off topic, but, concerning Fr Ruff -
    In accessing the link that Matthew provided above, I noticed a reference to a letter that the Italian organbuilders have written to Cardinal Sarah about the allen simulacrum which has found its way into St Peter's. Fr Ruff (is this or is it not predictable of him?) was pleased to find the letter 'elitist', 'polemical', and various other chic downputs. What is wrong with him?! I read the letter, and it seems to me quite calm and well-reasoned.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 575
    Who is Fr. Rulfs and why should we care about his opinion?
    Thanked by 1BGP
  • madorganist
    Posts: 308
    Fr. Anthony Ruff, O.S.B., author of Sacred Music and Liturgical Reform
  • He is a paradox.
    He knows all the right stuff -
    but acts like the enemy.

    His book, which Mad mentioned, is an excellent treatment of Christian ritual music in history and practice - excellent if one filters out his rather eccentric (and sometimes polemical with regard to his notion of 'reform') opinions. The book is expensive, but well worth having.

    To repeat -
    He is well versed and highly knowledgeable about the Church's music, but acts like the enemy.
  • madorganist
    Posts: 308
    Right MJO, he's not exactly a friend of traditionalists or a fan of the old rite, the so-called Reform of the Reform, or the Ordinariate either. He used to participate in this forum but hasn't been active in a while. He has derided the ceremonies of the TLM as "Carolingian court ceremonial" and criticized a precise approach to rubrics as prissy or fussy. He's also referred to what's become known as the Benedictine arrangement as unnecessary "hardware" on the altar. So, basically, he often presents what comes across as a very informed (and probably well intended) "spirit of Vatican II" approach.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,974
    I know little of Ruff, but wasn't Rembert Weakland, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, an expert on chant? It seems a bit odd when I encounter these guys who have great knowledge, but use it to undermine rather than build up their subject areas. Why study and learn something if you don't believe in it? Go figure.
  • Cynically, AA-1025 comes to mind.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 948
    Well my .02 is that we have elevated the spoken word above everything else in the Mass. There is this intense NEED to UNDERSTAND every word as soon as it is spoken, thus the drive for venacular (And I have heard it said) that music must never be more important than this spoken word, so music must always be relegated to second place in the liturgy...
    I think that sometimes the old rite has to appeal for us in that we don't have the need to understand every word, and everything all the time, the music can sometimes 'overwhelm' the words that the priest speaks - indeed, some of what he says is said quietly under the sound of the music. This kind of this is ANETHEMA to modern liturgists - the idea that a priest could say something in a language that is not IMMEADIATLEY UNDERSTOOD BY THE WHOLE ASSEMBLY is a great sin that music be purged from out communities. And the rite has to be OWNED by the community, etc etc.

    The reality is that there are many ways in which God can speak to his people. Music is a big way, and it is 'extra rational'. There are many ways of knowing beyond what the literal word says.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 757
    I don't get the drift of this discussion. Fr Ruff says we should probably modify the three year cycle of readings, surely many here agree. Fr Ruff says the Allen 'organ' is inappropriate for St Peter's and has supported the petition against it, surely most here agree. Unless you take the view that all you need say is delenda est 'forma ordinaria', why not welcome the discussion suggested by the OP.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 757
    Better proclamation ,yes; more bible study, when? lectio divina, when? better preaching, fine but not based on mega-church style; short introductions -
    That means more words, the 1973 did have inbuilt one sentence intros, when read by the reader they definitely did not work. But one line from the presider/homilist I can imagine being fruitful. Suppose the reader arrives at the ambo, turns to the celebrant, waits for an intro and then turns back to the congregation. A piece of theatrical 'business' which helps the congregation focus?
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,304
    <>
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • ...must always be relegated to second place in the liturgy.

    Ha!
    If they only knew -
    if they but truly understood -
    the liturgy itself is music.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,153
    His book, which Mad mentioned, is an excellent treatment of Christian ritual music in history and practice - excellent if one filters out his rather eccentric (and sometimes polemical with regard to his notion of 'reform') opinions. The book is expensive, but well worth having.

    In many ways this sounds like the oeuvre of Fr. Jungmann, S.J. Obviously very well researched, excellent eye for the detail and nuances of our liturgical practice throughout its history - but when it comes right down to it, his conclusions seem, shall we say, non sequitur to most of us here.
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 115
    @madorganist

    unfortunately presumes that even in a well-celebrated Mass the scripture will merely be read, not chanted.


    The abbey I'm affiliated with chants all the readings, every day, in French, very beautifully I might add, at their OF Mass (which has Latin Gregorian propers and Latin/Greek Gregorian ordinary as well). Even the readings of Matins are chanted (albeit recto-tono, in French) and the short readings of the other hours are also chanted (in French, but with inflections).

    Heck even the refectory readings are chanted (recto-tono, again, in French).

    Outside the monastery (and others I've been to), not so much though...

    Ora
  • It is disappointing that Fr. Ruff publicly endorses SING TO THE LORD a document that was never approved by Rome.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,142
    I'd be surprised if it needed approval: liturgical documents of bishops' conferences only need approval if they add new regulations to those existing.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,273
    It is disappointing that Fr. Ruff publicly endorses SING TO THE LORD

    While Sing to the Lord is an approved statement of the USCCB, it was drafted by the BCDW's music subcommittee, of which Fr. Ruff was a member. Why would you possibly think that he would not endorse a statement that he helped to draft?
    Thanked by 3chonak ghmus7 Adam Wood
  • Are only iconoclasts and chic modernists who are disdainful of our patrimony of music and liturgical praxis, and the champions of scholarship molded by and ground through trendy thought grinders the only ones who are ever on committees and congregations who 'draft' influential documents, approved statements, and general directives?
    Or does it just seem so?
    And how did we get here?
    Thanked by 1BGP
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,304
    What was technically needing but never received Vatican recognitio was the USCCB's submission to comply with Liturgiam Authenticam 132:

    "Within five years from the date of publication of this Instruction, the Presidents of the Conferences of Bishops and the Supreme Moderators of religious families and institutes equivalent in law are bound to present to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments an integral plan regarding the liturgical books translated into the vernacular in their respective territories or institutes."

    A requirement that the USCCB may have been the only episcopal conference that bothered to make a submission, and so far as I am aware, that the Vatican has left a dead letter from virtually the moment it was issued.
  • MJO: Here is an observation, perhaps apropos (or not). It is certainly true (in my experience) in academia. Whether it is true in Church business I couldn't say.

    Committees tend to be populated by people who (surprise) love to serve on committees. Those who think that committees are largely the work of the devil, or at least what he does in his spare time, tend (surprise) to avoid committees.

    This fact has a tendency to produce self-perpetuating ideologies: Insofar as committees tend to produce results with which one disagrees, one will tend see them as the work of the devil.

    It is one reason that tenure has become a joke at most institutions of higher education, to give just one example (on which I almost just succumbed to the temptation to elaborate).
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,304
    MD

    "Committees tend to be populated by people who (surprise) love to serve on committees."

    They also tend to attract and repel depending on their leadership and perceived culture/mission. About the only way to counter that - if the desire is for the committee to be credibly perceived as representative - is random selection of members and leaders from the broadest base, and regular turnover.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,153
    Over at *Ostrowski's Website* < / hushed tones> he has a great article by the ever-illustrious Fr. Rutler, which is worth it for this quote alone:

    “I like that old saying: God so loved the world that He did not send a committee; He sent His Son. My experience has been that the less people know what they’re doing, the more meetings they have.”
    Thanked by 2dad29 irishtenor
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,409
    Hear!!! Hear!!!!
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,471
    I like meetings if there are good refreshments before and during and after.
    purple=off
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,974
    I like meetings if there are good refreshments before and during and after.
    purple=off


    Just don't invite those large people who eat all the snacks.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 575
    Just don't invite those large people who eat all the snacks.


    I represent that statement!
  • But Jesus did select a committee: calling the 12 apostles was one of the early acts of his ministry. Why? Because as the Son of God he knew perfectly well that the job of preaching God's love to the whole world was too large for one man.

    As flawed human beings, we need to work collaboratively so that our weaknesses don't overwhelm our work.
    Thanked by 2Carol CHGiffen
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,153
    But Jesus did select a committee:


    I guess that means Judas Iscariot is Patron Saint of those who eat all the snacks?

    He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, he shall betray me.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 661
    he's not exactly a friend of traditionalists

    That's one way of putting it.

    Father Ruff's response to Dr. Peter Kwasniewski pretty much sums up his attitude to anyone who dare question what has been established liturgically in the past 50 years. Such people are not only "at war with Vatican II" but "lack basic obedience to or communion with the rest of the Church in matters liturgical."

    He then rather rudely tells Dr. K. to take a hike: "Please don’t drag your anti-Vatican II and anti-reformed Catholic liturgy materials into our [sic] combox." He later adds, "What I wrote above is what the Church believes."(!) Ruff locutus est, causa finita est!

    One wonders how Rome could possibly have approved of all those groups celebrating the old liturgy, but that's not a topic that's welcome on the blog either.
    Thanked by 2StimsonInRehab BGP
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,974
    What makes it difficult to take Vatican II seriously, at times - Byzantine here so no real stake in it - is that the Council said one thing and did another. One would almost think the Council Fathers were members of the U.S. Congress. It's the total disconnect between the two that doesn't add up. It seems clear that the council wanted the liturgy reformed, but I'm not so sure they endorsed what resulted. And now I hear folks wanting to canonize Paul VI, a totally inept pope, who never had any real control of the church or council. He may have been holy enough, but not a coherent or capable leader.
  • madorganist
    Posts: 308
    One of the latest jabs from Fr. Ruff:
    I don’t blame people for having good experiences at the EF. I blame church authorities for allowing and promoting it.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 5,827
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 661
    I'm speechless. It's hard to answer someone else's statement when it makes absolutely no sense.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,471
    AA-1025

    At first I thought that was a Liber Usualis page reference
    at which I would find a Latin text to be translated.
    Fail.
    Google.com and Archive.org
    gave me a non-scriptural text to ponder.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,142
    For the record: in the past, some people thought that "AA-1025" was actual documentation and not a novel.
  • Chonak,

    There are still people who aren't sure, and others who are sure it is actual documentation.
  • MNadalin
    Posts: 3
    Today, with the option to use Year A readings for the Scrutinies, is a perfect example of why we only need a one year cycle.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,153
    Wait, what, Chonak?!?

    C'mon. Next you'll be telling me The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is nothing more than anti-Jewish fan fiction . . .
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,974
    Our pastor directed us to use the readings and psalms for the specific Sundays. No alternate readings or options.

    Elders of Zion. Hilarious.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,117
    Today, with the option to use Year A readings for the Scrutinies, is a perfect example of why we only need a one year cycle.


    If you want a one year cycle we do have it, just go to the EF. (I have not been to the OF for almost 20 years!)

    One of the latest jabs from Fr. Ruff:
    "I don’t blame people for having good experiences at the EF. I blame church authorities for allowing and promoting it."


    As for the above I can see Fr. Ruff's point... If the OF is the fruit of the Council, and most importantly the reform that the Council Fathers called for, why do we need the EF? By allowing the EF the Church authorities are by implication saying that the OF has under achieved. By allowing the EF are we really giving the OF the time needed to become part of the culture as the EF had ably achieved. No better illustration of the effect of the EF on culture can be found here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agatha_Christie_indult it is also well worth reading the actual text of the letter linked from the Wikipedia page.

    Does it really help the crisis in the Church if all the young men, young women, and young families are not going to their Geographical parish but travelling to the EF?
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,153

    If you want a one year cycle . . .


    Or worship ad orientem,
    Or communion received kneeling on the tongue,
    Or exclusively male altar servers,
    Or a silent recitation of 'Eucharistic Prayer I',
    Or the Sign of Peace done correctly
    etc.

    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Carol
    Posts: 202
    I recall my mother saying "If girls are allowed to be altar servers, soon no boys will want to do it." She wasn't far off, we have mostly girl servers in my neck of the woods.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,304
    "Does it really help the crisis in the Church if all the young men, young women, and young families are not going to their Geographical parish but travelling to the EF?"

    Hardly the case in my neck of the woods, and also where there are minors as servers (some places only use adults), it's a pretty even split between the sexes.