Which Asperges me do we sing for Septuagesima, Sexagesima, Quinquagesima and Lent?
  • Can you tell me which Asperges me we sing for Septuagesima, Sexagesima, Quinquagesima and Lent? I assume the same one... is it mode 4 or mode 7? Thank you!
  • There is no prescribed Asperges for use - it is entirely your choice.

    I typically use the standard version (or a polyphonic version) through the year, and I or II for Advent / Septuagesimatide / Lent respectively... but that's just my own convention. If you use the standard one year-round, there is nothing wrong with that, just as if you were to use any of the others.

    I of course exclude PT from the above - Vidi Aquam during that season.
    Thanked by 1puretonesoprano
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Lent is a long enough time period to try new things. ;)
    http://www2.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Asperges_me_(Heinrich_Isaac)
  • Do I assume correctly that the only ones of us who are now entering 'Gesimatide' are EF folk and the Ordinariate? What a shame that the Church jettisoned this spiritually rich and potent pre-lenten period - not to mention the insane kicking aside of Epiphanytide. All for what?

    Unlike the EF folk, though, we do not sing asperges me at all, though some would like to see that change. We do, though, sing vidi aquam throughout Eastertide - to the Norris chant.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    We sing the mode VII i.e. first one... Although during Lent we sing the Mode IV (Ad Lib II).

    To denote the change we sing the older form of the Mass XI Kyrie (ad Lib X).

    We are EF!
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,094
    "Do I assume correctly that the only ones of us who are now entering 'Gesimatide' are EF folk and the Ordinariate?"

    Another reason I prefer the OF.
  • Tomjaw,

    Ignorant question alert: how do non-specialists tell the difference between the older and younger forms of the Mass XI Kyrie?

    Liam,

    What on earth do you mean, "Another reason I prefer the OF?"
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,094
    I strongly prefer the OF calendar in terms of not having a liturgical pre-Lent (given a choice between a relatively purely liturgical pre-Lent versus the gradual ascetic pre-Lent of the Eastern tradition, the latter makes more sense to me). The Church does not oblige me to long for a reinstatement of pre-Lent in its universal calendar. I remember the change from my youth, and it was one of the calendrical changes that made immediate sense to me.

    https://catholicsensibility.wordpress.com/2011/03/05/pre-lent-catholic-culture/

    YMMV .
  • Liam,

    I still don't understand, but that's probably because I'm being thick. Surely we warm-up into the hard work (we do vocal warm ups, for example, before singing; we do athletic warm-ups before playing a sport, or risk serious injury if we don't; why wouldn't a pre-Lent break-in be a good thing?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,094
    Chris

    You're not thick at all. I was being deliberately provocative because I realize people sometimes erroneously assume that all the regulars on this board are either open or crypto-traditionalists, whereas that's far from the case.

    1. I don't see the *need* for the Western tradition of a *liturgical* warm-up given that it's been *many* centuries since the practice of pre-Lent *culminated* in annual Shrovetide confession for which one's penance was undertaken *during* Lent proper. It is, in that sense, a relic. I can see why people may find things to love about it ("relic" is not pejorative, but descriptive), but it doesn't speak to a preparatory need anymore. (Perhaps if I were a cleric or religious chanting the office and Mass conventually every day I could see some use in a gradual liturgical shift, but that would be a rather niche need, as it were.)

    Rather, Lent is the period of preparation for *Easter*.

    2. The Eastern tradition, of a feasting week entirely free of abstinence, followed by gradual increase in abstinence before Forgiveness Sunday and Clean Monday: *that* is what is closer to what you are talking about, but it's not been practically operative in the Roman rite for many centuries. (If anything, quite the contrary until recent generations.) It has a liturgical connection in the sense that these weeks are in the Triodion, but it's much less about liturgical preparation.

    I have a Lenten program that I prepare and tweak from year to year, and that I just did the first part of last night: one of the things I do is try to use up stored food in the freezer, frig and pantry, but I also have to identify food that has gone bad in the process (sin of waste or overoptimism) or that I will give away, and that I did last night. I have to review my program of Scripture study and reflection for Lent (a bifurcated course reading of the Gospels) and Eastertide (course reading of Acts), what other prayer discipline I might add to daily Rosary, et cet. That's how I do pre-Lent. A priest suddenly showing up in purple on Sunday won't add a thing to it. (Btw, Septuagesima is also "sudden" just like "Ash Wednesday"; they are both arbitrary, albeit not capricious, dates.)

  • Liam,

    At some point in the past, but not in 19th century Russia, the introduction of penitential practices was gradual, just as (in the memorable expression of my choir director) at the end of Lent the "liturgy begins to fall apart", as more and more things are removed. If I understand correctly, the Lenten fast was much stricter, and so it was introduced by degrees. There's nothing arbitrary about this.

    Starting on Septuagesima, the organ is reduced or eliminated, the Alleluia disappears, the Gloria in Excelsis Deo disappears, eventually the prayers at the foot of the altar disappear......
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,094
    Chris

    To clarify: what I meant is arbitrary is that a date of commencement of pre-Lent or Lent is arbitrary (it's purely a derived chosen date - it's not like it itself is a memorial of a specific event). I understand what is liturgically eliminated/reduced/changed during preconciliar Roman pre-Lent. I am glad we had the conciliar reform in that regard.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    Ignorant question alert: how do non-specialists tell the difference between the older and younger forms of the Mass XI Kyrie?


    In the older books such as the L.U. and the Graduale pre-1962, there is a section on Cantus ad libitum, In this section a Kyrie X (Orbis factor) X c. and a Kyrie XI (Kyrie Salve) x c., if you compare them to the Kyrie found for Mass XI and Mass XVII you will see that they are older and simpler versions.

    As for Ordinary time, well it is Ordinary... Extraordinary time is well extra-ordinary!

    https://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/septuagesima.html
  • KyleM18
    Posts: 150
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the old (ad lib) Kyrie Orbis Factor is the plainchant you sing with most polyphonic settings which utilize the Orbis Factor? I believe that was the one written in the Tye "Kyrie Orbis Factor", which confused me for quite a while, sadly.
  • >> Lent is the period of preparation for *Easter*.

    hm, I have always felt that Lent was the preparation for Passiontide (without which there would be no Easter). At the end of Lent we quit focusng on our own sins and sinfulness, and turn our eyes to the Passion of Christ - e.g., introduction of the hymn Vexilla Regis
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,094
    Perhaps a more technical way to restate that for the OF is that Lent is a period of preparation for the Paschal Triduum. There being no Passiontide properly speaking in the OF, though there is a shift in certain orations in the last part of Lent, and the culmination of the sacraments of initiation (including renunciation of sin) being one of the liturgical foci of the Triduum.