Adding a 'new' Eucharistic piece to polyphony repertoire
  • the last time I find this discussed was 2013, so I thought I would bring it up again.

    today our little choir looked at the Josquin "O Salutaris"... just one page; simple, very ancient sounding, very beautiful.

    I love it when all the singers get enthusiastic about some piece we're learning. :)
  • Congratulations.

    Question: did you sing it at a very slow pace, or more quickly?
  • very slowly. why?
  • I've heard it sung at more like a walking pace, as one might speak the words -- and so accentuated in the following way:

    o SALuTARis HOStiA et reliqua
  • it says, "andante sostenuto". So, a bit slower than andante.
  • Mmeladirectress,

    My copy didn't have such a marking. I had the privilege of singing it this way (as described) under the directorship of one Arthur Connick, who lurks here and posts occasionally.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,464
    And here is another example of changing liturgical practice. we are not 'supposed' to sing adoration texts at Mass, those hymns such as O Salutaris and Tantum are to be sung only for Adoration. If someone wants to look up the reference to this, that would be helpful.
    Thanked by 1Viola
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    There isn't a law about the point (that I know of) but this sort of guidance does make sense.

    If you look at the Church's chant books, the antiphons specified to be sung during Holy Communion usually do not take the Eucharist itself as their theme. Instead, they are often related to the Gospel of the day.
  • we are not 'supposed to' adore at Mass?
    In my head I am hearing Laudamus Te, benedicimus Te, adoramus Te, glorificamus Te...

    and the two verses of Tantum Ergo are the last two verses of the Pange Lingua, which is part of the Holy Thursday liturgy (stripping of the altar),
    Thanked by 1Incardination
  • This is why a Eucharistic Hymn immediately after the Elevation isn't necessarily a bad thing.
    Thanked by 1mmeladirectress
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    mmeladirectress wrote:
    we are not 'supposed to' adore at Mass?

    Actually, that is not what ghmus has heard (from whatever source). I do wish readers would be careful not to misquote the arguments of other people. It leads to misrepresenting the arguments, which I am sure nobody wants to do.

    ghmus heard from someone that we shouldn't sing adoration texts at Mass.

    There is a totally legitimate point in this, which I've indicated above.

    Moreover, if people hear music that reminds them of attending Benediction, which is a different liturgical act from Holy Mass, and which is secondary to it, that can't be helpful.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    GIRM says, of the optional song after communion :
    If desired, a Psalm or other canticle of praise or a hymn may also be sung by the whole congregation.
    Sing to the Lord adds:
    The song after Communion should focus the assembly on the mystery of the Holy Communion in which it participates, and it should never draw undue attention to the choir or other musicians.
    Whether the 'praise' applies to both canticle and hymn choice is not totally clear to me.
    Thanked by 1Incardination
  • my original post was only to say that we had learned to sing the lovely O Salutaris by Josquin, which I first heard about on this forum. I thought that others, who may have recently joined this forum, might like to know about it too.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    1) It's lovely. 2) It's praise
    All praise and thanks to thee ascend
    For evermore, blessed One in Three;
    O grant us life that shall not end,
    In our true native land with Thee.
    Thanked by 1Incardination
  • "it's praise" what is that, a caveat? at least I quoted you correctly, but I guess I am too dense to understand the point. Prayer is all one: adoration, thanks, reparation, petition;

    and adoration and praise are valid elements in the great prayer which is the Mass
    for example,
    "Laudamus Te, benedicimus Te, adoramus Te, glorificamus Te"
    or if you will,
    " It is truly right and just to give You thanks and raise to You a hymn of glory and praise, O Lord, Father of infinite goodness..."

    IDK, maybe this should be my last thread.
  • Mme, I don't think you are the only one confused...

    ...we are not 'supposed' to sing adoration texts at Mass, those hymns such as O Salutaris and Tantum are to be sung only for Adoration. There was further solicitation for a "reference" that perhaps someone else might provide.

    There isn't a law about the point (that I know of) but this sort of guidance does make sense. Combined with a reference to chant books that "usually do not have the Eucharist as their theme."

    Really, it is a far stretch to act as if an opinion is like some "reference" that positively forbids or disapproves of adoration texts at Mass - or states that O Salutaris / Tantum are only to be sung for Adoration.

    Sorry, chonak - typically I find your posts well-written and can agree in the main. In this case, I don't. Benediction is not liturgical for one. (Benediction, which is a different liturgical act from Holy Mass) Regardless, I really don't follow your conclusion that "that can't be helpful". Maybe I'm just being obtuse, but I really don't know how you draw that conclusion. If we were to follow that viewpoint to its natural conclusion, we'd never sing the motets O Magnum Mysterium (responsory from Christmas Matins) or Peccantem Me (responsory from Matins of the Dead) at Mass.

    Focusing on the Gospel or text of Mass is ONE way to schedule music. I tend to think of broader constructs myself. I think there is value to repetition (both for the choir and the congregation) for scheduling hymns and motets, rather than trying to do a completely unique music schedule for every Sunday and every Feast.

    I wouldn't suggest that others have to follow my ideas of music planning any more than I feel bound to someone else's approach. Are we not, perhaps, turning this into a tempest in a teapot?
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    mme - Not a caveat. Praise is good, particularly after communion. For the OF praise is required of a hymn to be sung after Communion (GIRM 88 which I quote above), and IMHO O salutaris hostia fulfills that requirement.
    Thanked by 1mmeladirectress
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Thanks for the comments, Incardination. I don't mean to give the impression that I'm a stickler about the issues discussed here, and you're quite right to suggest that importing an office hymn into Mass can be a good way to find supplementary pieces: e.g., for offertory or communion. I'd just draw the line at "O salutaris" and "Tantum ergo", because those two are identified so strongly with Exposition and Benediction. It would be foolish to exclude, for example, "Adoro te devote".

    Incidentally, just as a footnote, Benediction became an official part of the liturgy when the ritual book for Worship of the Holy Eucharist Outside of Mass was published in the '70s. But from a historical point of view, you're right.
  • I stand corrected on the liturgical part - thank you!!
  • Besides GIRM 88 mentioned by a_f_hawkins, there is another point:

    While the Communio is often related to the Gospel, there is a long tradition to sing O salutaris hostia, Panis angelicus and similar pieces during the elevation (e.g., in the Masses of Gounod for a more recent example, or the well-known Franck Panis angelicus); IMHO the most appropriate moment after the liturgical reform (which eliminated the silent canon and thus the former place for a lengthy Benedictus or a eucharistic motet) would be to sing pieces like this during Communion, after the Communio has been chanted.
  • The motu proprio of St. Pius X specifically allows for "a motet to the Blessed Sacrament after the Benedictus in a solemn Mass." This is somewhat modified by De musica sacra et sacra liturgia, which directs that the Gregorian Benedictus be sung before the Consecration and recommends "a devout silence" afterward until the Pater noster. According to the same document:
    After the Communion antiphon is sung, and the distribution of Communion to the faithful still continues, it is also permitted to sing another Latin song in keeping with this part of the Mass.
    The generally reliable old Catholic Encyclopedia suggests singing the O salutaris as a supplementary Offertory (!) motet. If it's appropriate during the Offertory, I can't imagine why it would be unsuitable during Communion. Like the Tantum ergo, and as mmeladirectress already noted concerning the latter, the two stanzas usually sung at Benediction are from a longer hymn used elsewhere in the liturgy; therefore, it does not have an exclusive "Benediction" connotation. I might think twice about using DUGUET, WERNER, or ST. THOMAS during Mass unless it's Corpus Christi or a Votive Mass of the Blessed Sacrament, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with the Josquin setting. The false dichotomy between Eucharistic hymns that emphasize adoration versus those that emphasize reception of Holy Communion is often advanced by the same people who oppose kneeling, Communion on the tongue, central location of the tabernacle, use of the paten, etc. Such arguments are totally irrelevant to those of us blessed to offer music in the context of the TLM.