Using Mormon music?
  • I'm wonder what you think about using LDS music? First I should say that I'm in Ireland where LDS church is very small and not well known, so it wouldn't be particularly recognized as such. Secondly, having taken on a new choir of children I am trying to shape the culture a bit and to catechise.. I have a plan to teach a song before Mass on Sunday (before opening hymn) aimed at the young/very young (but sneakily catechising everyone.) I've found some simple ditties like this one
    https://www.lds.org/music/library/childrens-songbook/a-prayer-song?lang=eng
    which teach about reverence and so on. Can you think of any reason not to use them?
    I've got some more specific catholic ones too, about things like genuflecting and blessing yourself with holy water.
  • I'd worry more about the content than the denominational affiliation of the person who wrote it.

    Otherwise you'll tie yourself into knots when you get stuff written by Church of Ireland people.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW bonniebede
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    LDS music? Didn't know such existed. Does it come printed on gold tablets wrapped in angel underwear? Inquiring minds want to know.

    I'm with Pax. Worry about the content, not the source.
  • I like your plan!

    As far as the music you are considering:

    I'm with Pax and I'm against it.

    1. We bow our heads in prayer today,
    We fold our arms together,
    Then close our eyes, and while we pray
    We talk to Heav’nly Father.

    For the same reason that we should not sing Let Us Break Bread Together on Our Knees.

    We do not break the bread, the priest is not on his knees.

    We do not bow our heads, close our eyes and pray at Mass.

    Stick with the Catholic ones.

    Anyone else here agree?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Stick with the Catholic ones.


    You definitely have to be very selective and read them carefully. Then again, some of the things in supposedly Catholic hymnals can be suspect.
  • doneill
    Posts: 207
    Having worked as a Catholic in Utah, this kind of stuff came up. Some LDS musicians work in Catholic churches. Some LDS music is borrowed from other traditions and is mainstream hymnody that appears in Catholic resources as well. Others are unique to that tradition and have little relevance to Catholicism. Yes, look at the content. If you are dealing with children, there are better resources - RSCM, St. James Music Press, some things from Choristers Guild, and some of the better offerings for trebles from the big Catholic publishers.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • Of course I could adapt the words to the realities.

    instead of

    1. We bow our heads in prayer today,
    We fold our arms together,
    Then close our eyes, and while we pray
    We talk to Heav’nly Father.

    how about

    We ran around in church today
    And played some games together
    We're quite surprised that you should say
    Let's talk to God the Father

    what bow our heads and fold our hands?
    And kneel down in the pew?
    That's very strange, you understand,
    That's not the thing we do.

    We like to climb and jump about
    Come on, why don't you try it?
    We sometimes sing, but often shout,
    you have to in this riot.

    I think I had better stop before I start channeling some of the nastier Dr Seuss characters.

  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    Using Mormon music does not sound a bad idea considering the average Catholic church has music for morons. >end purple bold?
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • Does the text express truth?
    Does it do so without ambiguity?
    Does it express truth by admirable verse or prose?
    Is it absent even a tinge of untruth?
    Is the music worthy of the Lord's house?

    If so, its provenance is of no consequence - it is de facto Catholic.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    The verse in question is most un-admirable and in no way can it be considered to be "de facto Catholic." It does not express truth. And I do not even need to hear the music to know that it is totally unacceptable for use in any Christian house of worship, not just a Roman Catholic Christian church.

    Google "Heavenly Father" and you will get several hits about the religion of Mormonism. Read about "Heavenly Father" for as long as your mind and your stomach can take it.

    The Mormon's "Heavenly Father" is not the Christian's "Abba Father."

  • to be honest, my first reaction was, the Church holds a vast treasury of music, going back way more than 1000 years, containing everything from very simple exquisite chant to works by the greatest musical talents ever known; whyever use 'Mormon music'?
    Surely instead of finding something of theirs that is not too objectionable, there is some Catholic music that they will embrace. The possibilities are almost endless.
  • KARU27
    Posts: 184
    How about chant? Then they'll think that's normal and desirable in church! Or...too ambitious? Maybe a few lessons first that are not in front of the rest of the parish?

  • People might be surprised to know that they are already familiar with some chant... the Christmas carol "The Friendly Beasts" uses the melody of "Concordi Laetitia". Maybe you could start there.
    Thanked by 1KARU27
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Fr. Krisman hits the nail on the head here.
  • Thanks every one. Perhaps it would help to explain that this is currently approved music from our bishops catechetical programme for this age group.


    circle of friends

    You have friends, you are not alone.
    Thanks to them, you're not on your own.
    You are strong, even when you feel small.
    From the rain, they will shelter you.
    In your pain, they will comfort you.
    They will always pick you up when you fall.

    Chorus:
    Circle of friends, all around you.
    Circle of friends, strong and true.
    Circle of friends, always there for you

    Even when, you are far apart.
    To your friends, you're joined heart to heart.
    Far away, you are not on your own.
    You're not there, but they think of you.
    In their prayers, they remember you.
    You are never ever truly alone.
    Thanked by 1KARU27
  • circle of friends... how is this a hymn?
    it says 'prayers', does that fix anything? people around this area just equate that to 'keeping you in my thoughts', which is kindly I guess, but has no value.
    wow I am no bishop - I can just hear our pastor if asked to have this at Mass. Not only no, but "certainly not".

    surely 'approved' is not the same as 'mandated' ?! there are no options? (like changing your name and moving out of town...?)
  • Hie to Kolob!
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    We do not bow our heads, close our eyes and pray at Mass.


    Oh?

    "Bow your heads and pray for God's blessing...."

    You may keep your eyes open, or closed, at that juncture.

  • for the EF, in Lent it's "humiliate capita vestra" - but what the priest prays after we bow our heads is not remotely (according to my translation) anything in the line of "you have friends, you are not alone".
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Does the text express truth?
    Does it do so without ambiguity?
    Does it express truth by admirable verse or prose?
    Is it absent even a tinge of untruth?
    Is the music worthy of the Lord's house?
    If so, its provenance is of no consequence - it is de facto Catholic.


    Not quite, MJO, as I'm sure you realize. The mere fact that your taxonomy implies an arbiter, is that arbiter role fulfilled by Bonnie or by the Magisterium. Which suffices? Only the Magisterium, the Deposit of Truth (obviously.) LDS texts, and those inspired or composed by LDS have their origin outside of that deposit. This situo is not analogous to those of hymnists such as Wesley and Watts, who've been selectively scrutinized by scores of bishops throughout the last few centuries. Nor should we factor in those texts by RC authors that fail your taxonomy as well, despite local NO's and Imprimaturs.
  • circle of friends

    You have friends, you are not alone.
    Thanks to them, you're not on your own.
    You are strong, even when you feel small.
    From the rain, they will shelter you.
    In your pain, they will comfort you.
    They will always pick you up when you fall.

    Chorus:
    Circle of friends, all around you.
    Circle of friends, strong and true.
    Circle of friends, always there for you

    Even when, you are far apart.
    To your friends, you're joined heart to heart.
    Far away, you are not on your own.
    You're not there, but they think of you.
    In their prayers, they remember you.
    You are never ever truly alone.



    Maybe whoever included this in your Bishop's plan grew up with:

    https://youtu.be/godHmkd_lqc
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • In fairness, Circle of Friends is part of the catechetical programme, not the liturgical programme. It's appropriate for the intersection of faith and personal development, not for Mass.
  • Circle of Friends is part of the catechetical programme, not the liturgical programme. It's appropriate for the intersection of faith and personal development

    where is the catechetical part?
    how can it be appropriate for the intersection of faith and development if it doesn't mention the Faith, and the development is just reiteration of "you have friends, you are not alone" ... ? sorry this doesn't make sense to me.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Woohoo .. Jesus .. friend ..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-NOZU2iPA8
  • Clearly, this doesn't fit the criteria that I laid out above.
    Clearly, Fr Krisman is spot on.

    This isn't a hymn, not by any definition of 'hymn'.
    It's not even a 'religious song' or a 'sacred song'.

    It's just an incredibly vapid song about friendship, notably absent any religious reference.

    It could be sung anywhere but in church or at mass or any other ritual.

    Any bishop who put this on a 'recommended' list needs to take the course in sacred music that wasn't offered when he was a seminarian - plus, a course in literary criticism wouldn't hurt. (Catechesis, for Christians, implies that which would instill and reference religious fervour, knowledge, and understanding.)
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • Carol
    Posts: 856
    I agree. I taught first grade in a Catholic school for many years and believe that teaching children the music of the Church at a young age is best. If the words are complicated, explain the meaning in a way they can understand. Children are naturally drawn to good music, it doesn't need to be too simple. I recall learning hymns from the nuns for my First Communion and still am drawn back to that day when I sing them now. It was on the cusp of Vatican II and they were in English, "O Lord I am Not Worthy" and the like. Children's songs that they will outgrow are not as useful in my experience.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    Fr. Krisman hits the nail on the head here.


    Agreed. As do others.

    Carol, I agree. Third graders "get," for example, At the Lamb's High Feast, and Come Ye Faithful Raise the Strain. It doesn't have to be butterflies and bunny rabbits and praise choruses.
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • Speaking of what children can do, go to the 'Lessons and Carols' thread and hear the children and youth of St Michael's Cathedral Basilica posted by Casavant Organist. An exemplar for all. Ditto Walsingham's Treble Choir, of which I haven't a recording to post.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Kathy
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Just to kick a dead horse: we don't fold our arms when praying.
    Here in the States, at least, to fold one's arms is to do what this lady is doing:
    image
  • I really like a great deal of LDS music, although it has an 'American flavour' when I listen to it. Not sure why that is though. My favourites come from https://defordmusic.com/song-list/

    Her (Sally DeFord) stuff is really good, but there again my bad taste may be showing :)
  • The Mormon's "Heavenly Father" is not the Christian's "Abba Father."


    Yes, quite correct Father.

    ...the Church holds a vast treasury of music, going back way more than 1000 years, containing everything from very simple exquisite chant to works by the greatest musical talents ever known; whyever use 'Mormon music'?


    I think that bears repeating! Thanks Mme.

    While I also largely agree with MJO - that text and music have to be carefully examined to see if can be adapted when the source is non-Catholic (i.e. Christian), I'm afraid I absolutely DO consider the provenance as a factor as well. I'm sure I'm quite anachronistic, but I refuse to use "Away in the Manger", for example, because it has long been attributed to Martin Luther. I even struggle when using hymns penned by Charles Coffin, given his Jansenist end, although I'm willing to attribute my reservations to exaggerated scrupulosity.

    More to OP, I think Carol is spot-on:
    Children are naturally drawn to good music, it doesn't need to be too simple. I recall learning hymns from the nuns for my First Communion and still am drawn back to that day when I sing them now. It was on the cusp of Vatican II and they were in English, "O Lord I am Not Worthy" and the like.
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    In LDS settings, sometimes the traditional lyrics are altered to fit their theology.

    It can be subtle: One word of O Come All Ye Faithful--WORD--is changed to "Son"--which is actually fine, except that the omission of Word says volumes about the difference in theology.

    Wouldn't mind this volunteer choir and orchestra, though!

    https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2010-12-021-oh-come-all-ye-faithful?lang=eng
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    I'm sure I'm quite anachronistic, but I refuse to use "Away in the Manger", for example, because it has long been attributed to Martin Luther.

    This is a rather extreme position, basing it on what is generally considered to be a false attribution to Martin Luther. The following is extracted from the Wikipedia article on the carol:

    Spurious attribution to Luther

    The great majority of early publications, including the earliest known to us, ascribe the words to German Protestant reformer Martin Luther. Many go so far as to title the carol "Luther's Cradle Song" or "Luther's Cradle Hymn", to describe the English words as having been translated from Luther, or to speak of its alleged popularity in Germany. The claim of Luther's authorship continued to be made well into the twentieth century, but it is now rejected as spurious for the following reasons:

    • No text in Luther's known writings corresponds to the carol.
    • No German text for the carol has been found from earlier than 1934, more than fifty years after the first English publication. That German text reads awkwardly, and appears to be the result of a translation from the English original.
    • The unadorned narrative style of the carol is atypical of Luther who, Hill states, "could never throw off his role of educator and doctrinarian".
    • When some earlier nineteenth-century sources do mention a carol written by Luther for his son Hans, they are referring to a different text: Vom Himmel hoch, da komm ich her.

    Richard Hill, in a comprehensive study of the carol written in 1945, suggested that "Away in a Manger" might have originated in "a little play for children to act or a story about Luther celebrating Christmas with his children", likely connected with the 400th anniversary of the reformer's birth in 1883. [italics mine]
  • I thought that 'Away in a Manger' was infantile when I was an enfant.
    I still do.

    It does to Jesus what those horrid syrupy songs do to the BVM.

    I suspect that there was nothing at all 'sweet' about Jesus or his Mother. They both (and Josepth, too!) must have been very strong persons. Kind, infinitely and powerfully loving, strong, passionate, intelligent, etc. But 'sweet'?! Yuk! What an insult to what they really must have been like. I don't think that the Orthodox waste such sentimental, saccharine and vapid verbiage on our Lord or his Mother.
  • KARU27
    Posts: 184
    So, Luther wrote Away in a Manger, the same way that St. Francis wrote Make me a channel of your peace: hundreds of years after his death.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • I prefer "anachronistic" to "extreme", but I'm OK with either term!! :)

    At the end of the day, is anyone going to be caused irreparable harm to their Catholic Faith because I don't use Away in the Manger? I think not. I'm sure I could be offended (if I chose) that there are hymns that I consider beautiful and Catholic to the core which are not used in a wide variety of Catholic parishes for any number of reasons - not even in "conservative" or "traditional" parishes. Or even regarding chant... I had one pastor that forbade the use of Credo VI; another the use of Kyrie X ad libitum; another that does not want Mass X at the Rorate Mass.

    It is relatively recent (as far as I'm aware) that there is change in view on the authorship. I think you would probably find a lot of hymnals that still list Martin Luther as author of the text... hence the "long been attributed.." of my post. But Luther or not, I doubt that my conscience will trouble me much about not including it in my repertoire.

    I grant that for some people it epitomizes Christmas. For myself, I think there is much better fare available.
  • Exactly! KARU27 -
    Posthumous is almost as prolific a composer as Anonymous.
    Thanked by 2KARU27 Carol
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,801
    caused irreparable harm to their Catholic Faith because I don't use Away in the Manger?
    Only if you try to explain your reasoning.
    Thanked by 1KARU27
  • where is the catechetical part?
    how can it be appropriate for the intersection of faith and development if it doesn't mention the Faith,


    Because children actually need to be taught about community and incarnation. We're not alone because we live in a community of faith and our baptism calls us to model Christ for the people in that community.

    Also, understanding that values matter all the time, in all music not just in explicitly religious music and activities, is an important piece of learning.

    I absolutely agree that some children can cope with learning using material which is theologically and musically challenging even for adults. But some cannot - and the slower ones have as much right to cathectical material that meets their needs as the brighter ones do.

    I wince every time I see a choir leader say to a group of children "what does <<Latin phrase>> mean", one bright child gives the right answer and the leader says "see, of course you all understand even though it's in Latin" - because I know that probably 50% of the children don't have even the most basic idea what the Latin words they are singing mean.



    Just to kick a dead horse: we don't fold our arms when praying.
    Here in the States, at least, to fold one's arms is to do what this lady is doing:


    Really? When I was making my first Communion, we were taught to fold our arms like that and place our heads on them to pray. Presumably because that way we would not be distracted by the other kids.

  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    does not want Mass X at the Rorate Mass.


    Did Mass XVII/XVIII lose its place as the "Advent & Lent" Chant Mass??
  • Hmmm... Dad, I think you might have misunderstood "Rorate Mass". The Rorate Mass (EF) is the votive of our Lady on Saturdays in Advent. It has a Gloria and uses white (or gold) vestments. It typically starts pre-dawn, is only candlelit, and finishes as the sun is rising. (There is a correlation intended to the coming of the Son of God.) Very much a tradition in German parishes.

    The typical Mass for feasts of our Lady (as I'm sure you are aware) is IX or X. Mass XVII is typically for Sundays of Advent and Lent. Mass XVIII is typically for ferias of Advent or Lent - neither of which would apply here.

    Sorry that I wasn't more clear!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    There are several tunes for "Away in a Manger", and some are less bad than others.

  • Pax M - I am sorry, I just see nothing in that song that gives a hint of Baptism, modeling faith for others, or any kind of catechesis .

    the problem is not so much introducing the Faith at an elementary level, as not introducing it at all, by dumbing it down to just niceness.

    Certainly, not all must be Latin, not all must be high theology, but all must be more than just niceness.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Yes, I've read about those. Thanks for the update and yes, IX or X is used for Marian Masses which may be celebrated

    According to my EF Ordo (FSSP) the votive Mass of the Immaculate Conception may be celebrated on the FIRST Saturday of the month--but not the first Saturday of Advent (which would be the SECOND Saturday of the month). So when does the Rorate Mass slide in there? Does it KO the 3rd-class St Eusebius on the 16th, or sashay over to the 9th--which is a Feria 3, but NOT the first Saturday?
  • By definition, a votive Mass has flexibility as to when it can be celebrated, although there are obviously constraints to be observed. For example, votive Masses can not be used in lieu of a feast that is of higher class. The common of our Lady specifies Saturday Masses for the various seasons of the liturgical year, including Advent. It is not the same as a votive of the IC, that is something completely different.

    I don't know that there is a "norm" per se, but if not mistaken I believe the Rorate Mass is typically on the Saturday preceding the 3rd Sunday of Advent. I believe the Mass is a 2nd class votive, but even as a 3rd class votive it does indeed take precedence over a 3rd class feast.

    Lastly, the relation of the Masses in the Kyriale to specific feast types is not typically hard and fast (again, some exceptions). I don't HAVE to use IX or X for Marian feasts - that is simply what is specified as the norm. Nor do I HAVE to use the entire ordinary from a single Mass setting. Just to be clear.
  • Dad, since you mentioned referencing the FSSP Ordo, perhaps these might be of interest:

    http://www.saintjosephtacoma.org/RorateMass2017/index.html
    https://fssp.com/rorate-caeli-masses/
    https://allevents.in/minneapolis/rorate-mass/515032138857422

    Most of the other links that I saw for FSSP chapels had their Rorate Masses on the 16th.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Regrets--I mis-typed "Immaculate Conception" meaning "Immaculate Heart," and indeed, they differ.

    Now I quote from the FSSP's Ordo:

    On days of the fourth class, a variety of Masses may be celebrated...
    A. On all fourth class Saturdays, the Mass (and Office) of our Lady on Saturday is normally said (with Gloria). This is not a votive Mass, but the proper Mass of the day...


    According to the very same Ordo, there IS NO 4th-Class Saturday in Advent 2017.

    So this Rorate Mass has its own Propers?

    (I'm aware that Greg Ordinaries are not "assigned" and are mostly 'ad lib,' except for the Lent/Advent Mass XVII/XVIII, thanks!)
  • I'm not sure what else is in the Ordo, and I think you are (inadvertently) making a partial or incomplete reference - perhaps the rest of the information is in a different location in the Ordo. The Rorate Mass IS a votive Mass, not the Mass of the day. I'm fairly certain it is a 2nd Class votive, though I'd be willing to verify that. It is the Mass Propers from the common of our Lady on Saturdays in Advent - the Introit is Rorate Caeli (from whence the Mass derives its name).

    If you follow the 2nd link above, you'll see that the FSSP refers to the Rorate as a votive Mass celebrated in Advent. If you follow the other links above, you'll see FSSP parishes celebrating it on a Saturday in Advent (namely, the 16th). Clearly, unless the FSSP prints one thing in their Ordo and then does something completely out of character in its parishes and on its own site, something is missing... which is why I suspect an incomplete reference.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    No, no eliding here. There is no reference to it, either in the front of the book, or in the "Advent" section of instructions.

    I can find the Propers in my L.U.--which are given as a Votive Mass of the BVM for Advent (as distinguished from V.M. of BVM sung between Christmas/Purification, etc.)

    So what happened? I suspect that the Ordo is correctly written for the USA, but the current enthusiasm for the "Rorate Mass" (which I have never seen on the interwebs until this year) forced a change. You said that the R.M. is popular in Germany. So happens my Archdiocese is heavily Germanic and my EF exposure as an altar boy for 6 years (until 1963) was in a German-influenced parish. Cannot recall ever serving for such a Mass, nor being asked to do so.

    Hmm. Fads, even in the EF!!

    By definition, a votive Mass has flexibility as to when it can be celebrated,


    From the Ordo:

    A. On all fourh class ferias it is permitted to say a Votive Mass.....
    B. There are three Votive Masses which may be said each month on a fourth class ferias, fourth class ferias of Our Lady, or feasts of the third class.


    Yes, that would seem to over-ride the Feast of St Eusebius (3rd class, 16th of this month) But don't write home yet. Again quoting:

    4. These votive Masses may only be celebrated under the following conditions....
    ....b. where the special exercises of piety mentioned above actually take place.


    [These would be special exercises in honor of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.]

    So, although disjointed in these back-and-forth items, the Saturday Votive of BVM is NOT allowed on 3rd class feasts, and the Saturday Votive of IC is, but only if there are exercises--which I daresay may not have actually occurred.

    It's no wonder that the Ordo was revised and simplified, eh?
  • I have to laugh - this has been quite a shift from the original question about the use of Mass X vs. Mass XVIII! :)

    I remember all of us in my (non-FSSP) parish were taken by surprise when an item newly appeared in the FSSP Ordo last year... about the requirement to celebrate the solemnity of Ss. Peter and Paul on the Sunday following the feast if the feast, itself, was celebrated with a sung Mass. That had not previously been in the Ordo, although the legislation quoted was from the 1800's. Research established that it was, in fact, an accurate reference (specific to the U.S.). For many years in the Cincinnati - Dayton region (which includes FSSP and non-FSSP EF parishes), EF parishes ended the choir season with the feast of Ss. Peter and Paul. As a result of the new item, we adjusted the season accordingly.

    The point being that the Ordo is not always the complete story. As now the question is justification for the R.M., let me research a bit and get back to you with references.