• ghmus7
    Posts: 971
    So the Rebuilt parish has built and dedicated their new church. No organ, but a ton of music 'gear', including the obligatory drum cage next to the altar

    https://vimeo.com/233050072/d8daaaed96?utm_ource=email&utm_medium=vimeo-

    Over 150 churches have joined the Rebuilt movement.
    Is it over for us?
    It's hard to argue with success!
  • It's hard to...

    Providing what is being referenced constitutes actual success!

    What some define as success is an inherent cultural negative.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,026
    From the text of the sound track...Jesus, you're the reason for my breathin..Yeesh.
    A Catholic church in name only. Willow Creek Catholic style..
    Sadly, there are many of these churches in South Florida. As to success,nah. Its a passing fancy. Much like Lifeteen and a hundred other movements I have seen in my short passing on this earth.
  • Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. (Jn. 6:26 RSV)
    ....
    Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; (Jn. 6:68 RSV)
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,917
    Wow that is bad music.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,150
    Typical "Hillsongs," KP, daring the listener to find a true major or minor third amongst the suspended 2nds, 4ths, 7ths.....ho hum.

    Got the requisite barstool/round tables in the hospitality "room...."

    Blessed are the cheesemakers....
  • White sanctuary lamp... cool.
  • I thought the sanctuary lamp had to be red (every Catholic church I've been in, the sanctuary lamp is red)
  • Yes, I think Nihil was being tongue-in-cheek!! :)
  • Citing Fortescue -
    Amator Liturgae (March 1920). "Studies and conferences:What is a rubrical altar?". The Ecclesiastical Review. 7. 62 (3): 289. Retrieved 2011-12-27. "There is,as he also notes, no authority whatever for the glass of the sanctuary lamp being other than white"
    ! I confess I am surprised
    PS: foot note on p.6 of 'Ceremonies ...
    * Cod., c. 1271. The glass of the lamp should be white. There is no justification for any other colour.
  • Huh! Color me surprised as well. (Pun fully intended):
    While red is considered the traditional color of a sanctuary lamp, there is no liturgical law regulating the lamp color. What is required is that the lamp be near the tabernacle “fueled by oil or wax, and should be kept alight to indicate and honor the presence of Christ” (General Instruction of the Roman Missal 316).
  • And a_f_hawkins has found my source and my true meaning! Bravissimo!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,204
    Renew? That died, I hope.
    Rebuilt? If you hadn't destroyed it first, you wouldn't need to rebuild it.
    Renig? On church statements on music and worship.
    Refute? What these campaigns have been doing to the faith.
    Reline? Your pockets with money by appealing to the cheap and tawdry. That's what it's all about anyway, isn't it?
    Restore? Try that for a change. It may surprise you.
    Thanked by 1Caleferink
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 248
    Just to complicate the discussion: Forum members might be interested to know that Nativity always does the Sanctus, Memorial Acclamation, Amen, Our Father (Snow version), and Agnus Dei to unaccompanied chant. And from the beginning of the Eucharistic Prayer until the end of the Agnus the praise band disappears from the stage. True, it's always the Jubilate Deo chants (Mass XVIII), and their new building is as acoustically dead as a recording studio so it not a good space acoustically for chant, and the rest of the music is rockin' out praise band stuff, but they still do more chant on a regular basis that 95% of Catholic parishes in the world.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,204
    It's good they do some chant, which has never hurt anyone. But a little chant doesn't cover a multitude of other irregular practices. I am fortunate to be in a 110 year old parish that loves chant. We must be the 5%.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 248
    In my experience, they don't actually break very many rubrics. About the only one I can think of is that they tend to cut the responsorial psalm down to a single verse (refrain 2x, Psalm verse, refrain), which actually makes it structurally closer to the traditional gradual. They do lots of things that I consider suboptimal, both liturgically and aesthetically (if anyone's interested, my analysis from a couple of years ago can be found here), but they for the most part say the black and do the red.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,529
    This is also a parish that at one time had a very good children's choir/chorister program that was discontinued.
    Thanked by 1Mark Husey
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 248
    True. When the current pastor first got there he seemed to go for what one might call a "high church" aesthetic. He has said (and I believe him) that the style of liturgy at Nativity is not a matter of his own personal preferences, but a matter of what brings people in. And it does seem to do that (or maybe they come for something else---preaching, small faith-sharing groups---but it at least doesn't keep them away).
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,237
    Considering that the parish undertook a whole list of efforts to attract new members, is it reasonable to attribute new members to the music? Maybe a music program of classic congregational hymns with Proulx launch-a-crusade Mass settings would have appealed to the suburban dads (who should be the prime target audience, as they influence everyone else), even without guitars.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,529


    Considering that the parish undertook a whole list of efforts to attract new members, is it reasonable to attribute new members to the music? Maybe a music program of classic congregational hymns with Proulx launch-a-crusade Mass settings would have appealed to the suburban dads (who should be the prime target audience, as they influence everyone else), even without guitars.


    This was sorta kinda a bit like what they had when they had the children's choir/Choristers, organ and instrumentalists when Husey was there.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,237
    Sort of kind of. And they had a full house that day: good job, Husey!
    Thanked by 1Mark Husey
  • I would add that I started that previous July 4th weekend, and this their first go at a trebles choir (remarkable, really), vested and joined by members of my former choir of Saint John's in the Village (Episcopal, now in danger of being closed) and a concert choir I'd inherited that we restyled as "The Ridgely Consort" (also now defunct), plus about an octet of students from the Peabody Conservatory. Respectable numbers considered we'd only been going in that direction for about 5 months. When Fr. White supported something, he gave you everything you needed to make it happen. My two years there were certainly a learning experience for all concerned.

    Point of interest (and certainly a repost), my successor's fine boy's choir can be heard here. http://ststeve.com/music/boychoir/CDs.htm
  • Mark,

    If I may be so bold --- what changed? Why did Fr. White shift so dramatically on the liturgy? Do you know the story...?

    NN
  • KARU27
    Posts: 87
    Ugh. Such is the fruit of the council. Weird mix of suburban 1990s residential-style building, with 1970s style statuary, and the smokin' bowl of incense on the altar.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,283
    NihilN, to get a handle on what changed, you may wish to check out the parish's mission statement at: http://www.churchnativity.com/faith-mission-values/

    It appears that Cardinal Keeler and his successors bought into, and continue to buy into, Fr. White's focus on evangelizing disaffected Catholics.

    Personally, I would not attend that parish, if only because of the music. And I'm fairly certain that Fr. White would not expect me to attend his parish.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,237
    If this were to happen to my parish, I would feel that something had been taken away. Perhaps an outreach of this type ought to be defined as its own quasi-parish. After all, not everyone wants or needs this sort of low-culture outreach.
    image
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,204
    We could all do praise and worship Protestant music, a good time would be had by many, the pews would be filled and the coffers full of loot. But is it worth it? I would rather have some emptier pews and know that I was doing what I should. As an old teacher/mentor told me when I started teaching, "Do the right thing. You will never regret it."

    As for those "disaffected Catholics," if you pander to them, give in to their every whim, why do you think they will become more Catholic and less of what their little disaffected selves are? Sometimes I think we cater to folks when we should take a stick to them.
  • KARU27
    Posts: 87
    Sometimes I think we cater to folks when we should take a stick to them.


    That'd fill the pews! Maybe a grudge match between the traddies vs the hippie-era folks.

    Good sight lines in a church in the round!
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,204
    The hippies would forget where they are - too many organic compounds smoked and too much high-volume heavy metal music destroyed their hearing.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,497
    1:28-1:29
  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 246
    Watching the video I thought it was a Protestant church until it got to the end.
    Please could someone enlighten a poor foreigner as to what exactly this movement is? Is it really part of the Catholic Church? And is it likely to spread across the Atlantic? (or has it already?)
  • A bit late (I have been on holiday), but if you pack them in with this approach how do you get them to grow up spiritually? I am reminded of a Welsh Baptist church a few years back which closed when there was only one full member left, but had five, all over retirement age, who were still attending Sunday School and had never moved on.
  • After all, not everyone wants or needs this sort of low-culture outreach.


    That is absolutely true.

    But it is also true that not everyone wants or needs high-culture liturgy, either. (I know some here would argue that everyone needs it - but trust me, people who are not ready to hear high-art music just hear screeching when most of you hear beauty.)

    Catholicism is a both/and kind of church: we can do low-culture outreach, and as people mature in faith and knowledge of beauty we can do high-culture stuff with them too. Usually not in the same building at the same time. But any city can and should have a variety of approaches to making Jesus known.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 971
    I think their success is partly due to the incredibly large staff they have to focus on outreach - something like over 40 for a medium size parish. If more parishes had that kind of army, it would not matter what the music was.