God not "He"
  • francis
    Posts: 10,832
    Our Foreign Staff
    24 NOVEMBER 2017 • 11:54AM
    The Church of Sweden is encouraging its clergy to use the gender-neutral term "God" instead of referring to the deity as "he" or "the Lord".

    The decision was made on Thursday, wrapping up an eight-day meeting of the church's 251-member decision-making body. The decision will take effect on May 20 during Pentecost.

    It is the latest move by the national Evangelical Lutheran church to modernise its 31-year-old handbook setting out how services should be conducted.
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  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    It is the latest move by the national Evangelical Lutheran church to modernise its 31-year-old handbook setting out how services should be conducted


    Pshaw! Always behind the times. If they were really serious about modernizing, they'd retranslate the Bible with all gender-neutral pronouns ze, hir, zir, xe, xem and xyr.

    Pikers.
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  • KARU27
    Posts: 184
    "One bread, one body, one Lord of all, one cup of blessing which xyr bless. "

    Or is that not grammatically correct?
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  • Incardination
    Posts: 832
    The way so many things are left to individual conscience, they might as well replace with the pronoun "me".
    Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,421
    I read this article on the internet news offerings.

    As Scott says, they are quite behind the times insofar as that we have always known that God is not a sexual being, that he is neither male nor female. The feverish concern of those who, belatedly, point this out (as if we hadn't known it all a long) as though it were a sudden new revelation, are motivated not by theological concerns but by chalking up another 'victory' in the language arguments, by the patent sexism and gender preoccupations of the feminist camp. There is nothing in this world quite so big as the chips on feminists' shoulders. They, with their focus on this matter, have only succeeded in making God to seem even more gender defined - and us more conscious of it. That God is not anthropomorphic is hardly news to the rest of us.

    Curious, too, this madness to get rid of the word 'man'. Here their ignorance is laid bare for all to see. 'Man' means human, not 'male'. The word for a female human is 'woman', and the word for a male human is 'were'. 'Man', though, means naught but 'human'. 'Mankind' and 'humankind' are exact, precise, synonyms.
    Thanked by 3Incardination Scott_W CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,832
    O man... this is ridiculous.
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,100
    of course we've always known that God is Spirit; but if our Lord was pleased to refer to His Father as the Father, what are they thinking about?
    Or (don't tell me) are they having trouble with the Son being a Son, as well? or they just haven't gotten there yet?
    sheesh

  • Bobby Bolin
    Posts: 421
    I will bless the Lord at all times. (His) Praise shall always be on my lips. My soul shall glory in the Lord, for God (he) has been so good to me.

    One of the few times OCP actually got it right...
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,983
    What will those trans gendered Protestants come up with next? ;-) They have suffered from confused theology for centuries. Is there no hope?
  • narfie13
    Posts: 18
    Be of good cheer with goodwill to all humans, and grumble not about feminists or those transgendered or even non binary persons. Not everyone is for the "all male, all the time" terms for the Godhead.
    A wondrous balance of masculine and feminine qualities is usually better suited to life on earth than living on the male or female margins.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,832
    I am FATHER, SON and Holy Spirit... two of three MALE identities here, people. And by the way, Jesus was a MALE... no question there!
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  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    The one hymn texts feminists left undamaged:

    "Turn back, O Man, foreswear thy foolish ways"

    Jackson,

    "Man", surely, is polyvalent. "Man-eating shark" doesn't make my wife feel safe to go swimming, but viriliter agite is often translated, "Be [not, act] a man!"
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    As a friend of mine says, "You may call God a rock, a fortress, a refuge, a stronghold, a buckler, a shield, an inheritance, my light, my salvation, my portion, my cup, my merciful love, but not a she."
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • G
    Posts: 1,401
    Or is that not grammatically correct?

    Do you mean "grampatically" correct?
    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • G
    Posts: 1,401
    O man... this is ridiculous.

    Please, please... "O PERSON, this is ridiculous"
    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Kevin814
    Posts: 42
    This story seems more nuanced than some news outlets are reporting. Apparently, variations are offered re: how to refer to God in worship, and somewhere along the line, folks started reporting that there was a ban.

    From thelocal.se:

    "The Swedish Church has hit out at 'fake news' after reports it had decided to stop calling God 'he' or 'Lord'. 'It is not true,' a spokesperson told The Local.

    The Church of Sweden will only refer to God in gender-neutral terms, reported several of the world's biggest news outlets on Friday, saying it had made the decision in an update of its 31-year-old handbook.

    "It's not true," were a spokesperson's first words when The Local called to ask.

    "It's not true," repeated Sofija Pedersen Videke, head of the Church's service of worship committee, which was heavily involved in the work on the new handbook before it went before the Church Assembly.

    The Church Assembly, a 251-member decision-making body, voted on Thursday with a large majority to update the handbook, which includes the Church's aim to use language that is "more inclusive".

    "The old handbook is from 1986 and the new edition is much more in line with the Swedish Bible translation made in 2000," Pedersen Videke told The Local. "God is beyond 'she' and 'he', God is so much more."

    "Everyone who wants to call God 'Lord' can remain calm. It is still there in many places in the new handbook. We have replaced 'he' with 'God' in one place, that's all," Pedersen Videke told The Local.

    She said she had been fielding calls from journalists all day, and the Swedish Church also replied to several comments on its social media accounts, emphasizing that the change is not all-encompassing.

    When The Local repeats the headline "Church of Sweden to stop referring to God as 'he' or 'Lord'", which appeared in a major mainstream international newspaper on Friday, to Pedersen Videke, she sighs:

    "It's not true, it's fake news. I am aghast and wonder where it's coming from?"
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  • Kevin814
    Posts: 42
    A response on the Church of Sweden's own website:

    https://www.svenskakyrkan.se/nyheter/fake-news-in-the-media-about-the-church-of-swedens-new-worship-book

    It's not hard to guess at the sequence of events here:

    1) A journalist unfamiliar with Swedish liturgy misinterprets a small linguistic change
    2) Journalist writes a misleading clickbait headline implying that this change is all-encompassing
    3) Traditionalists go berserk!
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,092
    What about God's right to be referred to by His chosen pronouns, as any humyn has?

  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 445
    The word for a female human is 'woman', and the word for a male human is 'were'.


    Have you a reference for that? I've never seen the word "were" as an adjective before.




    What about God's right to be referred to by His chosen pronouns, as any humyn has?


    We'll need to start using Greek / Hebrew / Aramaic to do that, since God didn't organise for the Bible to be written in English.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,217
    "wer" (that's the usual spelling) was an Old English and Middle English word meaning "man"
    (male human being) or "husband". We see it survive in the compound word "werewolf".

    A blog from the Macmillian publisher talks about it briefly:
    http://www.macmillandictionaryblog.com/his-and-hers-wyf-and-wer
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  • Kevin814
    Posts: 42
    Frankly, I'm surprised how many people took this at face value without digging deeper... including the posters on this thread. The original post doesn't link to anything or even cite a source, for goodness' sake. Are Catholics so eager to believe the worst about their Protestant brothers and sisters?
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,832
    Thanks Kevin:

    Forgot to put...

    source...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/24/church-sweden-stop-clergy-calling-god-lord-bid-crack-gendered/
  • francis
    Posts: 10,832
    a few other sites (there are others) reporting including abc news

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/24/church-of-sweden-to-stop-referring-to-god-as-he-or-lord

    http://www.konbini.com/us/lifestyle/god-gender-neutral-church-of-sweden-decided/

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/swedish-lutherans-urge-gender-neutral-words-god-51357401

    http://www.dailywire.com/news/23932/church-sweden-castrates-god-no-saying-he-or-lord-paul-bois#exit-modal
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,217
    I wouldn't fault people for believing it: the story went out on AP and was carried by several major press outlets, as well as opinion sites -- I see Francis has beat me to the point!
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,421
    Kevin -
    Regardless of the lack of link or source citations, it is rather common knowledge that the more liberal Lutheran areas (as the Scandinavians are!), in addition to too many Anglicans subscribe to the current fetish for feminisms in reference to God. I have encountered this in Episcopal churches in the US (what would you expect of a feminist 'priest'). To the leadership realms in most historic Protestant churches this it is de riguer to refer to God with female pronouns in such a blatant manner as to shape peoples' perceptions of the Godhead. If their object were to teach the truth that God really is not anthropomorphic, is neither male nor female, but is pure spirit, that could easily enough be done. But no, the object is to feminise and to deify the feminine.

    It is worthy of note that our Lord spoke only of his 'Father', taught us only to pray to 'Our Father', and made zero references to God with feminine pronouns or attributes. With or without links and sources, it really is no shocking surprise that the Church of Sweden has made this change within its rites.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,832
    the abc report...

    "Theologically, for instance, we know that God is beyond our gender determinations, God is not human," Jackelen was quoted as saying by TT.
    ummmm.... JESUS IS and WAS and WILL FOREVER BE HUMAN!!!!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,217
    Oh, Francis, stop posturing: the Incarnation of Our Lord does not change the fact that the divine nature and human nature are two different things. The one line you quote is completely orthodox, and I trust you know that.
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    Fair enough. We should vet these stories a little better. As far as traditionalists freaking out, who did that? I cracked a joke and most of the other comments are in the vein of "Meh. Just another day in the smouldering pile of rubble that used to be mainline denominations." The story is entirely easy to believe because it's not like attempts to reduce Scripture to PC mush are unprecedented.

    And also their objection seems to imply that their plan is not to deal out all the mush at once but drip by drip like an IV bag full of anesthetic. Not exactly inspiring confidence.
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  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,934
    The way so many things are left to individual conscience, they might as well replace with the pronoun "me".


    Well, we must admit, Cardy - if any group could achieve the impossible and become a Solipsists' Convention, it would be the Church of Sweden.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,421
    Don't be too sure about that, Stimson.
    As pelagian tendencies are no stranger to the Anglican world, solipsism is not far away.
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  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,934
    Well, let's be charitable, Chick. Archbishop Welby would shake Trump's hand if he absolutely HAD to.
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  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    On Kevin's admonition to dig a little deeper, I took a look at the Church of Sweden. As a former ELCA Lutheran, I assumed the Sweden Lutherans were similar: increasingly Leftist, but still conservative compared to other mainline denominations (granted, assumptions based on 15 years ago). Boy what a wrong assumption! This church has ordained an openly homosexual bishop and is now going to officiate Mendacimony (same-sex "marriage").

    So it turns out I was being charitable. I assumed that while the Church of Sweden was likely slouching ever-leftward toward Gemorrah, that they hadn't actually started dancing before the rainbow calf yet. They have. Quite enthusiastically I might add. So from digging a little deeper, we discover that "Gee whiz. We're just changing 'He' to 'God' in one place!" is like a punchline to a very sad joke.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    1/ I notice that OE wer and Latin vir look and sound similar.
    2/ Can anybody point me to an old testament source for a pronoun used by God to self-identify? The Hebrew of Exo 3:14 does not have a pronoun or any implied gender. {"Here is what to say to the people of Isra'el: 'Ehyeh [I Am or I Will Be] has sent me to you.'" (Exod. 3:14 CJB)}
    'Ehyeh :- verb qal imperfect 1st person common singular
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  • Kevin814
    Posts: 42
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not one to advocate for changing liturgical texts willy-nilly. But I've learned over the years that when outsiders report on church issues, it's worth a double or even triple check. They frequently muddle their facts.
  • vansensei
    Posts: 220
    I've seen Catholic parishes do this also. This is all I will say on the matter: it is a slippery slope. First, they come for the liturgies. Then they come for the sacraments; and then 30 years later, no one still there has a real baptism because they eschewed the true nature of God. Just a warning.
  • tsoapm
    Posts: 79
    I've learned over the years that when outsiders report on church issues, it's worth a double or even triple check. They frequently muddle their facts.
    You remind me of a blog on the subject: getreligion.org, with the headline quote “The press… just doesn’t get religion” –William Schneider.

    I don’t know who William Schneider is, but the quote seems pretty spot on anyway.
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