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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    This discussion was created from comments split from: Forum Etiquette Guidelines, ver. 0.7.
    Thanked by 1Richard Mix
  • Carol
    Posts: 856
    I am enjoying the discussions, but wonder if there is another forum that may have less focus on Gregorian chant and be about liturgical music more generally. I get the feeling most of the posters here might not think what I do as song leader and cantor at Mass is sub-par. Do you know of such a forum? I don't want to quit this one, just curious if there is something not quite so "high-brow." Thanks!
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    TEN YEARS
    Thanked by 5CharlesW canadash Kathy Casavant Organist eft94530
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Carol: If you are on Facebook, you might try, "I'm fed up with bad church music." Though, it is a group which includes any denomination. I've noticed that many Catholics post. However posts are not archived like they are here.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    .
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,100

    wow, this forum has been around ten years? that's amazing!
    speaking for myself, I have learned a lot & am continually finding more here.
  • Carol
    Posts: 856
    Thanks I will check it out. Sorry to have resurrected a thread which was dropped.
  • teachermom24
    Posts: 327
    Carol, Challenge yourself to learn more about the history and purpose of sacred music in the Catholic Church. A few years ago, I wrote a course for my homeschooled teens on this subject and we found it so enlightening for our service in the Church as musicians. Find out why Gregorian chant is to be given "pride of place" in the Mass http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_instr_19670305_musicam-sacram_en.html. Music at Mass is never about "what I like" or "what I want" or whatever anyone "wants or likes". The Church has spoken and instructed. It is for us to listen to Holy Mother Church and then proceed.
    Thanked by 2Carol Cantus67
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    @teachermom24, do you still have said course?
    Thanked by 3bhcordova Casavant Organist RedPop4
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Gregorian chant comprises the main body of liturgical music, so therefore a forum that focuses on liturgical music should have a lot of discussion about it. The fact that the majority of Catholic churches seem to ignore its importance doesn't change what it is.
    Thanked by 10CCooze Incardination CHGiffen tomjaw Cantus67 32ContraBombarde Casavant Organist Jeffrey Quick RedPop4 rich_enough
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    .
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Hi, Carol --

    Thanks for your comments! By now you may have looked around at some of the topics on this forum, to see that it includes hymnody and new choral compositions as well as Gregorian chant and older choral polyphony.

    But definitely chant is central to our mission at the Church Music Association of America (musicasacra.com). CMAA exists in order to promote sacred music in Catholic worship according to the Church's teachings on music for the Roman rite. You can see an overview of our history at
    https://musicasacra.com/about-cmaa/our-history/

    The Church's written teaching on music mostly developed in the 20th century, starting in 1903 with Pope Pius X, through Vatican II, and beyond. Consistently those teachings point to Gregorian chant as the characteristic music that belongs to us as Roman-rite Catholics. It is our heritage (even if we haven't learned it yet) and it's our calling to live it and be nourished by it.

    In addition to Gregorian chant, which is sung in unison, the Church has praised choral polyphony as it developed in the Renaissance; and has praised organ music. The Church's regulations for music in the Mass (for example, in the GIRM) also permit the use of hymns.

    Obviously there is a gap between the ideals which the Church presents and the current practice in most parishes around the world, and part of the discussion here is about how to gently move toward improving the music performed at Mass. That means: singing the texts of the Mass more, instead of only singing hymns which are "tacked on" to the Mass. It means moving toward the fully sung Mass, starting with the priest's parts and his dialogues with the people. There's even a step-by-step guide in a 1967 document from Rome.

    But working to improve parish music is a subject fraught with complications. People have strong feelings about what they like, and some people want church music to resemble the entertainment music that they like. Some people want lyrics to be about ourselves and our spiritual feelings, or about certain causes they care about.

    But of course you know that the music at Mass is mostly meant to render glory to God and add beauty to the rite of Mass itself. So it'll be focused on Him and not us; and with an emphasis on singing the texts of the Mass.

    As for the forum, it is very much a product of the participants. If you'd like to start a discussion on something that's relevant to your musical work, feel free: at the top of the right column, there's a button to "start a new discussion".

    --admin
    Thanked by 8M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen a_f_hawkins canadash Carol eft94530 RedPop4 StimsonInRehab
  • tsoapm
    Posts: 79
    There's even a step-by-step guide in a 1967 document from Rome.
    Does that mean Musicam Sacram?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    It is a problem with MS that it was produced before the new missal was complete, development was running in parallel. Consequently some of the revisions, such as the re-purposing of the Alleluia, and the recasting of the Offertory, cut the steps loose. It comes after the 'freezing' of the EF, at 1962, and before the OF in 1969, and applies straightforwardly to neither of them. A modestly revised version would be very useful.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    A modestly revised version [of MS] would be very useful.

    Many, many, many years ago I asked Cardinal Virgilio Noe why the CDW had not issued any legislation on music after Musicam Sacram. He told me it was because the congregation did not have on staff anyone with the required expertise.

    Would that the same reasoning had been suggested in 2001 when Jorge A. Card. Medina Estévez was wanting to issue an instruction on vernacular translations.
    Thanked by 2a_f_hawkins RedPop4
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    A truly remarkable story! https://adoremus.org/2015/01/15/Helen-Hull-Hitchcock-RIP/
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    music at Mass is mostly meant to render glory to God and add beauty to the rite of Mass itself


    Let's not forget sanctifying and edifying the Faithful (albeit that is, strictly speaking, the function of SACRED music.)
    Thanked by 3mmeladirectress M. Jackson Osborn canadash
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    He told me it was because the congregation did not have on staff anyone with the required expertise.


    Oh. Was the CDW incapable of finding and hiring such a person? Or did they recognize that nobody, least of all Bishops and priests, gave a rotten fig about Roman pronouncements?
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    I get the feeling most of the posters here might not think what I do as song leader and cantor at Mass is sub-par. Do you know of such a forum? I don't want to quit this one, just curious if there is something not quite so "high-brow." Thanks!


    Carol,

    The Cantor has always had a very important role in the Catholic church, leading the monks or nuns in the singing of the liturgical Hours. A really excellent way to experience this is to visit this site:

    https://www.barroux.org/en/liturgie/listen-to-our-offices.html

    Cantors also intoned the chant at Mass.

    The Cantor sings a line to set the pitch and the speed of the chant. In the music will be an * which indicates when the group should join.

    Unfortunately, when the church fathers decided to permit local languages at the Mass, they failed rather spectacularly in determining what music should be developed and how it should be led.

    Excited priests saw enthusiasm of Protestant church congregations singing with a song leader. A SOLUTION HAS BEEN FOUND!

    Which has turned out to be a huge failure.

    They failed to notice that in most Protestant churches there was only one church service all week, there was a choir standing and singing the hymn, the choir and the organ leading the music.

    The song leader's job, though he was facing the people, was to keep the beat for the choir, organ and piano...often on opposite sides of the church.

    Saddling you, Carol, with the job of leading the people in singing without a choir behind you and an organist, was totally unfair.

    That song leader in the Protestant church was often very well paid and chosen by audition of many interested in the job. They are trained in choral directing, voice and church music history and some very highly placed paid as much as $100,000 a year.

    So the local parish priest finds volunteers to stand up in front of the people for 4 or 5 Masses a week without providing training.

    And the publishers find a huge market in new music, buyers not interested in the organ and choir and instead using piano guitars and drums...not that many years earlier, this would have never been permitted.

    You see, the job of being a Catholic musician up until then, whether paid or volunteered. was clearly defined. You knew what music could be sung and when to sing it. The church worked hard to establish this and did so well, for centuries.

    But this was all abandoned. Leaving confusion and bong drums at Mass. Black vestments of mourning were abandoned at funerals since they are now happy things! Instead of praying for the souls, instead lay people get up and tell funny stories about the dead person...still firmly not permitted at funeral Masses, but more common than...acorns under an oak tree.

    The professionals who understood the Catholic liturgy ran or were chased away, many seeking very gainful employment in the Protestant church world, where liturgically trained musicians are often warmly welcomed, since we know "what church is."

    Carol, it's not that we do not welcome you, we do!

    We often just don't know what to tell you to encourage you and end up writing about church laws that, like highway speed limits, are universally ignored.

    Don't leave, things are getting better.

    As I said before, welcome. Your voice is welcome here.



    Thanked by 4CHGiffen chonak mattebery Andrew_Malton
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