Is a New Ecumenical Novus Ordo Liturgy about to be rolled out?
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I don't presume to say, but serious people such as the well-known Vaticanist Marco Tossati are suggesting that it's in the works:

    https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2017/10/the-war-against-cardinal-sarah

    Toward that end, the well-respected Fr. Hunwicke of the Anglican Ordinariate, has written a public letter to Bishop Roche, the under-secretary of the CDW, to ask him to verify if this is true:

    http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/dear-bishop-roche.htm

    So, is a novus Novus Ordo coming?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Who knows? There's enough craziness in the Latin church to sink the Titanic again. When I retire from music, I will return to the old,old ordo - the one written by St. John Chrysostom.
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    Julie
    I think Fr. Hunwicke's letter was written for an entirely different audience...
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    It appears that Cd. Roche is leading the committee for this new scribbling, and that Cd. Sarah--the PREFECT of the Congregation--was not invited to be a member of said committee.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,827
    Clowns will be a tame addition in the Nu version! Maybe the GIRM for that one will include 'rubrics' for the proper shades of make-up.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    greeting.mp3
    142K
  • Chonak,

    You who? You, too? Or You two?

    To wit, to woo. A merry note.
  • PaxTecum
    Posts: 314
    @chonak OMG :-O

  • oh no.
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  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    The rubrics will be in pink.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    You who?


    The 'Yoo Hoo" song - you who dwell...

    I guess if they really want relevance, it will be "sup dude - yeah dude."
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,827
    Now, we know that the pope is not greatly concerned with liturgy, and he probably doesn’t care much about this paticular issue.
    Ha ha.! BA-LONE-E!!!

    Don't believe this for one second because the modus operandi of the present bureaucracy is to have you think exactly that.

    Even wiki is well aware of the truth. Don't think the pope is ignorant or indifferent on liturgy.

    Lex orandi, lex credendi

    Lex orandi, lex credendi is a motto in Christian tradition, which means that it is prayer which leads to belief, or that it is liturgy which leads to theology. Wikipedia

    Habit forms the person, the mind and then the destiny. Change the book in the pew and you will change the heart of the people. Morph the 'dogma' and you are left alone in heresey. Change the words of consecration and you's eatin' crackers, Polly!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    I was not expecting good things from this pope to begin with. I have read that he left a trail of chaos in his previous position that would take 20 years to straighten out.
  • God bless the TLM.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I wonder if this ties in with something Cardinal Marx said recently which struck me as odd at the time.

    He was in the news rejoicing that Pope Francis' correction of Cardinal Sarah had vindicated the position of the German bishops' conference. Dismissing Liturgiam Authenticam as a "dead end, the Cardinal conceded that there was "no rush" for a new German translation of the Missal, and that the 1970's translation "wasn't that bad".

    It seemed a bit strange that Cardinal Marx wouldn't be immediately out in front demanding a new, improved translation of the Novus Ordo after the German bishops' bitter battles with Ecclesia Celebrans and Pope Benedict over translations.

    However, did Cardinal Marx know that a brand-new, shiny, ecumenical Mass was in the works, making the Novus Ordo a moot point? Why waste time making another translation when the Novus Ordo will soon be obsolete?

    Is that also why a gleeful Cardinal Kasper has advised everyone to be ready for some more "surprises" and why Cardinal Marx says he has worked and prayed for years for a united church of Catholics and Protestants and is calling for "the reunification of the Christian Churches"?

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Even if Francis croaks tomorrow, the rot in the episcopacy is ingrained and will continue. It would take a lengthy reign to ferret it all out and fix it.
  • ...the rot...

    There should have been no suprise to unwitting faithful. Had the Church been alert and well-led the outcome might have been more pleasing. But no, the rot was and has been there since before the recent council. It did not just happen in a vacuum, but was waiting in the wings. The unwitting council merely provided unintended coverage for what, considering that the council said A and all went home and did B, was an effective coup d'etat d'eglise. Rarely has a coup gone so smoothly and wrought such a transformation - and it isn't over. At our peril do we think that historical events happen and are over. Rather, they are processes which unfold over time - even much time. Nor can we stanch the flow by sticking a finger here and there in the leaky dike. A total and absolute housecleaning (which will never happen) is the only cure. If H.F. Benedict didn't do it no one will.
  • Charles

    I find that I disagree with your assessment of how long it will take to fix.
    Were Pope Francis or his successor to require that every bishop wishing to keep his See should celebrate a Pontifical High Mass...... the solution would be at hand. Those willing to do so would keep their Sees. Those unwilling.... wouldn't.
  • Chris is correct.
    The pity is that -
    if Benedict didn't do it no one will.
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  • Jackson,

    Given that we're living through the most unsettling papacy in ..... quite a while, perhaps the good Cardinals who elect the successor of Pope Francis will choose to go in quite a different direction, acting under the inspiration of God? After all, the "rock star" pope John Paul was followed by the quiet, unassuming Pope Benedict, and the abstemious Pope Pius XII was followed by the not-abstemious Pope John XXIII.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982

    I find that I disagree with your assessment of how long it will take to fix.


    They could celebrate a Pontifical High Mass with as much duplicity as when they accepted the oath against modernism of Pius X. Those externals do not change the interior dispositions. They just retreat below the surface and plot and scheme.
  • I have little faith in the wisdom of our cardinals, too many of whom don't come near deserving to be called 'emminence' (and the same may be said of far too many 'excellencies' who are far from excellence). They are all pitifully fallible. They did, after all, elect Francis, knowing full well his background, style, preferences, and outlook. His pastoral concerns are, to my mind, long over due. It is his theological and liturgical weaknesses that are alarming and should never have been allowed in the door - but, the 'Spirit of Vatican II' types are cheering him on.

    I doubt that there will ever be another Benedict.
    Pity, deep pity, that he didn't thoroughly clean and disinfect the house.
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  • I doubt that there will ever be another Benedict.


    We can always hope there will be a pope like Jude Law! :D
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    the rot was and has been there since before the recent council. It did not just happen in a vacuum, but was waiting in the wings. The unwitting council merely provided unintended coverage for what, considering that the council said A and all went home and did B, was an effective coup d'etat d'eglise.


    See Bella Dodd.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl CharlesSA
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    The saddest thing of all is to think that, under Pope Benedict, two undersecretaries in the CDW, Msgr Grenesche and Fr. Anthony Ward, were apparently preparing a revival of Gregorian chant as mandated in the motu proprio, Quaerit semper:

    In present circumstances it has seemed appropriate for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments to focus mainly on giving a fresh impetus to promoting the Sacred Liturgy in the Church, in accordance with the renewal that the Second Vatican Council desired, on the basis of the Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium.


    In May, 2011, Maestro Fulvio Rampi, a noted schola director in Cremona gave a seminal address in which he explained how the plan for liturgical renewal by Pope Benedict's CDW as it was envisioned and mandated since the time of Pope Pius X had never been implemented:

    Monsignor Juan-Miguel Ferrer Grenesche, undersecretary of the congregation for divine worship, made a thorough review of the magisterium of the Church in matters of sacred music, from the 1903 motu proprio "Tra le sollecitudini" of Pius X until today.

    The conclusion that Ferrer drew from this is that a "clear and precise" magisterium in this regard has been given. But it has been widely disobeyed and contradicted. And the blame has in part belonged to the hierarchy of the Church.

    The Church spoke – Ferrer noted – but lacked "a concrete intention to have the discipline in effect applied by those who had responsibility in the matter."

    So then, in regard to this sin of omission attributable in large part to the congregation for divine worship of which he himself is part, Ferrer has announced that it is being remedied.


    So a new office was established to promote the development and use of appropriate liturgical art, architecture and music and that would

    finally apply, all over the world, the prescriptions of the Church unheeded until now, the rebirth of Gregorian chant first among them.


    The office was scheduled to be operational in the beginning of 2013.

    So, evidently, careful plans for the official revival of Gregorian chant had been devised and carried out and were on the verge of being implemented when Pope Benedict suddenly and inexplicably resigned.

    The Ratzingerians would apparently never dream of imposing their version of liturgical renewal willy-nilly upon the Church. Their approach is cautious, careful and gradual---so gradual as to be almost imperceptible.

    The Bergoglians, on the other hand, waste no time on the niceties. They drive their programs through with little regard for sensibilities or long-held beliefs and practices.

    Whose vision will prevail in the long term? That is the question. It seems to me that the original Liturgical Movement is kind of like a coil, or spring, that keeps being pushed back into its box but is slowly growing in size and momentum so that someday it will be impossible to suppress and will suddenly burst into bloom.

    That's my hope, anyway.


  • JonLaird
    Posts: 245
    From Jeff Mirus over at Catholic Culture:
    Remember the famous proof formulated by the great Catholic apologist Hilaire Belloc:
    The Catholic Church is an institution I am bound to hold divine—but for unbelievers a proof of its divinity might be found in the fact that no merely human institution conducted with such knavish imbecility would have lasted a fortnight.

  • Indeed, even though sometimes the imbecility has been other than knavish!
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  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    Sometimes it seems like we're in a second reign of Arianism, one that presides primarily in the Liturgical and aesthetic aspect of the Church. And no doubt, poor doctrine follows, Lex credendi… The heresy of formlessness, that makes man the center of the liturgy rather than God, the human over the divine, is like a kind of Arianism, making Jesus man, rather than God and man, though here in his Mystical Body, the Church, who offers the Sacrifice in him on Earth. Like Arianism, this "rot" has spread and infected so much of the Church and so many of her clerics.

    We need an Athanasius.
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    @Vilyanor will this do...

    image
    Mgr_Schneider,_Chartres_2015.jpg
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  • Viriliter agite!
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