If Ye Love Me (Tallis)-different voicings??
  • Heath
    Posts: 759
    I have an SAB arrangement (GIA) from the late, great Richard Proulx with this note on the back:

    "Editions for four and even five voices are well known and a few versions for three voices appeared in both England and America..."

    Five voice "If Ye Love Me"?? Has anyone come across different variations of the piece and can point me in the right direction?
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,390
    I haven't. If such a thing exists, I imagine it would be one of the following, depending on the key chosen:

    SATTB
    SAATB
    SATBarB

    While the first would be more "classic" mid-16th century English, the second and third would likely be arrangements reflecting the supply of voices today...
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 768
    I have it in TTBB.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,787
    CPDL's editions include the original in C (AATB or TTBB) as well as in E and F (SATB). And, of course, they are freely downloadable.
  • jefe
    Posts: 149
    I've never seen a 5-part, even after exhausting pubished versions, Giffen's site, and IMSLP for examples. I can see the reason to do an SAB version, but going to five parts is just going to erase that Tallis genius straight away with excess baggage. Any great piece of music withstands transposition well. Less well endowed music does not. What I do know is I use the Chiavette concept going both ways: up a 4th for the Ladies and down a 2nd, 4th or 5th (or other interval) from SATB to the men with counter tenors. It all depends on the piece: where the extremes of the voices lay, and how that effects the overall tonal effectiveness. After trying the original C version of "If Ye" and finding it too low for my counter tenors, and the 'F' version too high for my C.T.'s I put it up a step and all is well. It was a good move as the piece is still rich but brighter, a nice compromise. Find my 'D' version below.
  • Heath
    Posts: 759
    Thanks, as always, friends . . . I'm well aware of the variety of transpositions for the four-part original, and I was just hoping that someone had seen one of the "re-voicings" that Proulx speaks about. Ah, well.
  • Pretty sure there is an old edition that splits the top part into two near the end, presumably because the 2nd part (which goes above the top part) was thought too high for altos. Not seen a copy for years though!
    Thanked by 1Heath
  • stulte
    Posts: 196
    For fun, I decided to make an 3-voice arrangement of it for TBarB (pdf and midi attached). Any feedback would be appreciated.
    Thanked by 2Heath bonniebede
  • does anyone have a copy voiced for SAT or SAB? I can't seem to find one online.
  • I don't have any of the voicings requested, but here is a Latin motet (Bone Pastor) for the same music that some of you may find useful.
  • Heath
    Posts: 759
    bonniebede, the SAB version adapted by Proulx and published by GIA is worth a look!
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 681
    While I haven't revoiced this piece, I have adapted the SATB to have/fit Catholic text, rather than the version that reads/sounds quite Protestant. ;)
  • stulte
    Posts: 196
    While I haven't revoiced this piece, I have adapted the SATB to have/fit Catholic text, rather than the version that reads/sounds quite Protestant. ;)


    I'm still planning on putting a Latin text TBD to the music so that I can use it during Mass. However, I did check the English text against the Douay-Rheims and the DR uses Paraclete instead of Comforter and the word "even" before "the Spirit of Truth" is missing. Which text did you pick?
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 681
    While I prefer to use the DR for Bible quotes, I decided to go with the translation currently in the lectionary in the US: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth"
    Thanked by 1stulte
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 681
    (I will feign bravery and finally post this here.)
    I am open to comments/constructive criticism, since we will be using this piece for the 6th Sunday of Easter. As I mentioned in the comments above, I used the translation in the lectionary

    I've been struggling with m.18, and so I will also attach a snapshot of my 3 options, side by side... if any of you would like to comment on which of those seem best.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 6,002
    My only question is 'why would one make a version of this motet with a different text than its original one'. I think that all the 'yous' sound horrible, not to mention tampering with rhythm and putting musical accents on weak syllables and putting verbal accents on weak beats. Why is this necessary at all? Since this is an anthem (an ornament to the liturgy) and not a part of the ritual text itself, it need not hie to the lectionary version of this text.

    I really do hate to play the spoil-sport (or 'sprit') because it is apparent that you have taken great and conscientious pains in arranging this version. But why? It isn't necessary. The revised text doesn't flow and sounds forced. And the beauteous original is perfectly fitting as an anthem as it is.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,227
    My only question is 'why would one make a version of this motet with a different text than its original one'.


    If you're a stickler Roman (guilty a charged, in case you were wondering :P) you use the contrafactum Bone Pastor so that the piece may be readily performed during High Mass. Cheating? Perhaps. But hey - what are contrafactums for?

    the spoil-sport (or 'sprit')

    Mission: Soda pop erupting from nasal region
    MISSION ACCOMPLISHED
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 681
    Well, I posted, above, the main reason why.
    While I understand that this music + text is beloved by many, for one reason or another, I have a similar aversion to the Tallis, as the text is traditionally performed, as do you to the version I just shared.
    I cringe every time I have to sing the "original" version, as I find it hard to believe that it was the text originally set to it, if truly to be used as a piece in Catholic liturgy. It sounds so, incredibly Protestant; especially with its "e'en" (honestly, that word means nothing at all in biblical context, and is just there for some false sense of flow to the text) and its naive presentation to the world of translating Paraclete as "Comforter" (I get that this translation uses "Advocate," but it still feels more authentic than the fuzzy feeling of "comforter - since in the Divine Praises they changed "comforter" back to "Paraclete," it would be nice if they'd do so for the lectionary, as well). Even saying, "I will pray the Father," is awkward.

    As for the accents of various words, I'm still open to ideas as to how one might prefer their placement, but within the context of this text.
    Thank you for your input.
  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 246
    There isn't a problem with it in the UK because we are used to singing 16th-century English, which is what this is. I can see that maybe in the US people are less accustomed to this type of language. Here it is mainly sung in Anglican churches, but Catholic choirs sing it too and I'm not aware of anyone wishing to change the words.
    Tallis is thought to have had a foot in both camps, Catholic and Protestant, like Byrd. A wise move, considering the awful consequences of being arrested and tried for treason.
    Using the contrafactum Bone Pastor (made by Sir Richard Terry, I think) might be a way of avoiding the problem, as Stimson suggests.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,390
    FWIW, I know if I were in a congregation and encountered a revision of the text, I would be utterly distracted by it - it's one of the few Tudor English anthems that is much more widely encountered in Roman Catholic parishes than typical polyphony of the period (in the sense that it's likely to beone of the very first additions to the repertoire of choirs trying to move beyond what has been Typical Contemporary Practice). And I am no traditionalist! The director who does this should understand that, in sparing him/herself annoyance, the annoyance is merely transferred to folks in the pews. The Law of Conservation of Annoyance, and all that.

    PS: "Comforter" is not a distinctively Protestant term for the Holy Spirit. It's also an English Catholic term. One can find any number of older English-language Catholic churches titled Holy Comforter, though it's less common than Holy Spirit for contemporary dedications. (Charlottesville, Virginia's oldest Catholic parish, with that title, dates to the 19th century, for example.) Let not the Coverdale Bible text be assumed to be the ultimate tainted source in that regard.

    Yf ye loue me, kepe my commaundementes. And I wyl praye the father, and he shal geue you another comforter, that he maye byde wt you for euer: euen ye sprete of trueth.
    Thanked by 1Richard Mix
  • do any of these posters use "Come, Holy Ghost"? If so, what do you do when you get to the second verse where it says "O Comforter, to Thee we cry"? just wondering.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,787
    I was wondering about all those churches with the name Holy Comforter.

    The problem is that an early (and presently somewhat outmoded) meaning for Comforter is one who provides strength and/or support, one upon whom one may call (this second is almost precisely the meaning of Paraclete).

    In my own "If Ye Love Me" (with the Roman Missal text, just updated in another thread) - I use Paraclete but allow for substituting either Advocate or Comforter.

    Thanked by 2barreltone CCooze
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,390
    giving aid and comfort to the enemy is a still-current idiom of that meaning.
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 108
    The Catholic churches that I've been at and sung at have seen fit to include all sorts of Anglican repertoire - anthems from Gibbons, Stanford, Stainer, Walton, Howells, and many more, a huge repertoire of English organ music, and even repurposed sections of the Ordinary. None have been thought of as foreign or inappropriate in even the strictest Catholic liturgy.

    If ye love me is one of the most neutral and well-recognized anthems I can think of. The new text does nothing else to satiate the rubrics and merely destroys the lyric flow. I can see no reason to use it, and I think your concerns (though well-intentioned) are not necessary.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn JL