Your Dream Mass Programme
  • What would be your dream Mass music programme?
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,911
    Depends on what the liturgy is for, but the Durufle Requiem would definitely be my ideal for that particular Mass.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Pierluigi's Marcelli with chanted Propers. Period.
  • CantorSJVCantorSJV
    Posts: 3
    This is a moot point for me, because the organist with which I work chooses music from a book provided by the Oregon Catholic Press, which also supplies our hymnals.

    A dream Mass music program for me would be one that does NOT include any of the following:

    The Prayer of St. Francis (It is a beautiful prayer, but not a beautiful melody)
    Glory and Praise to Our God
    On Eagle's Wings (This was one of my mother's favorite hymns, but it is not one of mine.)
    I Am the Bread of Life (Awkward to sing for someone with a high voice, and not worth the trouble. "Lift High the Cross" is also awkward to sing, but it's a nice hymn.)
    Blessed Are They (How to trivialize The Beatitudes in one easy lesson.)
    Be Not Afraid

    I am a paid Leader of Song, but, to me, it is not just a job. I am also taking part in the Mass, which is the highest form of prayer. It is up to me to make the hymns meaningful, even if I don't like them and find them trivial. I always try to put heart and soul into my church singing, and to sing as well as I can at the moment, in order to help the congregation members get into a spirit of prayer. Sometimes this means biting the bullet and singing something I hate. So be it!

    What would I like to hear in church sometime? The Poulenc Gloria! This could never be done at a Mass, because it's too long, but it would make a wonderful piece for a church concert, if a good choir, a good soprano and a good orchestra could be put together.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,382
    It does really depend on the liturgy, because some demand consistency in repertoire, others can be a bit of a mish–mash, others can have more polyphony...

    But my ideal for a day like St. Anne, for Solemn High Mass, would be chanted propers and a Flemish or even English late medieval/Renaissance polyphonic Mass (so perhaps a chanted Kyrie, but with organum) which one would be hard–pressed to justify on a Sunday or holy day of obligation. It would have to be long and complex, but with a really tight cantua firmus. I don’t have a particular one in mind, FWIW.
  • In the current state of Church Music in Chile, I just dream with a full Gregorian chanted mass.
    Thanked by 1Joseph Michael
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Our Parish priest, singing all his parts. Our congregation singing all of theirs - any Gregorian Mass would do. My family choir singing. (as opposed to gazing around distractedly etc etc etc.)
    But most of my actual dream masses are nightmares - you know the ones where you have forgotten something important - like clothes.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,468
    I've been to my favourites... the EF Masses at the Colloquiums I have attended. Heavenly... all of them.
    Thanked by 2marymezzo CHGiffen
  • I would love to sing a Mass from the Simplex. All the Order sung to simple or solemn tones (consistently), a Simplex Ordinary, and the appropriate Simplex Propers. I wish that were the default (and financially possible) Mass. Then some programs evolving to Romanum Propers as possible. Additional music as necessary and possible.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,690
    Our Parish priest, singing all his parts. No I am not looking for miracles, just what Holy Mother Church expects. Our congregation singing all of theirs - any Simplex Mass would do.
    Meanwhile, in another part of the galaxy diocese there's this. That's OK as a concert, very glad they did not try to do it as liturgy.
  • The Poulenc Gloria! This could never be done at a Mass, because it's too long

    Good point to discuss.

    It is not out of the realm of possibility - People who love the liturgy and music for years would choose to attend the High Mass on Sundays. On a special Feast, with due notice to the congregation - and community - the singing of the Arvo Part Messe, or the Poulenc, or other extended works, there is absolutely no reason not to do such music.

    It does not "prolong" the liturgy, it further enhances the liturgy, just as Adoration is a prolonged moment in the Presence.

    If the pastor is convinced of the importance of music, and its use as an evangelistic tool, it can work.

    How many have converted, attracted by the beauty of the experience of the Liturgy, in the history of the Church.

    As many have left for the lack? The negatives can be offset by positive experience.

    Be enthused.
  • Increasingly, my dream is:

    The entire Mass is sung. As the choir director: Open Graduale Romanum. Sing everything assigned to the day. Thank God and the Church for the Graduale. Move on with life.
  • Oh - and a chant ordinary appropriate to the day or season.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,791
    Re Poulenc Gloria.

    I think CantorSJV is referring to the multi-movement "Gloria" (modelled after Vivaldi's similar work), rather than the Gloria from his "Messe en Sol", correct?

    While I would encourage the liturgical use of Poulenc's Mass, I wouldn't recommend the huge Gloria with orchestra -- unless it were at a Mass with a very select congregation.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,676
    I never bought the whole "Mass isn't supposed to be a concert" argument. What, you don't think the Almighty likes concerts too? :D
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,676
    As far as dream mass program - hard to choose, since a lot of it depends on my current state of mind. At the moment (and this could change in an hour or so) . . . French Romantic ordinary, Renaissance motets, chant propers. And hymns before and after. Well . . . maybe Terce before and a hymn after.
  • ...on my current state of mind.

    I, too, would have to express this sentiment.
    But, contrary to Stimson, I would never want a French (or any other) romantic ordinary.
    This would not be dream, but a nightmare.

    Dream components, which can change with 'state of mind' are renaissance polyphonic ordinaries (more Moneverdi-ish or Gabrielian than Palestrinan - though one shouldn't want to overlook RVW's mass in g-minor).

    Polychoral motets are the ideal for ornaments. Never to be overlooked would be Tallis or Gibbons, or Byrd, or Weelkes, or....

    Depending on 'state of mind' it might include hymns and propers, or just propers, which may be plainchant or polyphony-choral. Hymns would be graced with descants and organ embellishments.

    Organ voluntaries of a suitable gravitas are a must.

    Priests and deacons would sing every last syllable of their parts - as would the people - nor would any imaginable part of the mass be delivered but by song or chant.
    Not one single non-ritual utterance or act would even be dreamt of by anyone, high or low. (Those who violate this inviolable principal should be exiled to a barren and gruesomely remote south Atlantic island infested by insects.)

    Smoke would be thrown in great profusion by at least one thuribler - who knows well how to do what we Anglicans call 'Queen Annes' and does them with aplomb.

    Still - there are days on which I would be gladdened with an all plainchant mass, sung by choice French monks.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,576
    on my current state of mind.

    sing every last syllable

    My Homer Simpson mind is currently occupied by this Monty Python skit.
    Thanked by 1bhcordova
  • Prelude: Bach, Prelude and Fugue in F (bwv 540)
    Gregorian propers
    Ordinary:Frank Martin, Mass for Double Choir
    Processional Hymn: Lobe den Herren
    Offertory Anthem: Wesley, Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace
    Offertory Hymn: Ewing
    Communion anthem: Bairstow, Let all mortal flesh keep silence
    Communion hymn: Divine Mysteries
    Recessional Hymn: Sine Nomine
    Postlude: Gigout, Grand Choir Dialogue

    Brass and timpani where appropriate
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,791
    Currently, I think it would include the following

    Asperges: Mode IV version from Kyriale
    Propers: from Graduale
    Ordinary: Monteverdi Missa In Illo Tempore a6 (with colla parte wind band)
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,676
    This would not be dream, but a nightmare.

    Yeah, I often get the feeling that my "dream mass programs" would be synonymous with my entries in the "guilty pleasures" thread.

    Although I will concede - it would be satisfying to hear Gjeilo's Sunrise Mass in a liturgical setting.
  • Some famous XIXth century man of letters whose name isn't coming to me just now once said that in heaven the angels sing Bach when praising God, but, en famille, they play Mozart.
    Thanked by 2Choirparts CHGiffen
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,361
    That quote is from a book occasioned by the 1956 bicentennial, but sure enough Barth was born before 1901. I have to work hard not to confuse him with Barthes ;-)
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,127
    Jackson, the man in question you write about is Karl Barth, the great Protestant theologian.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Ha!
    At least I remembered that it started with a 'B'.
  • I heard an addition, that for fun, the angels would play Haydn.
  • Antonio
    Posts: 43
    Depends on what the liturgy is for, but the Durufle Requiem would definitely be my ideal for that particular Mass.

    We did the Palestrina Pro Defunctis, a 5, last saturday for the soul of a person deceased 4 months ago, among two cantus varii by Victoria (Taedet animam meam) and Fauré (In Paradisum). The priest said that was one of the most beautiful Masses among many ones he celebrated or attended in the past. We were asked to do it only 5 days before the Mass but an small miracle-like thing occurred and we managed to recruit five good singers to do the job.
  • This is the music I’ve picked out for my funeral:

    Entrance Hymn: Oh Lord of Light Who Made The Stars (Creator Alma Siderum, 7th Century),

    Gloria: Mass for Joy (1966) (Alexander Peloquin). This would have to be played on a CD although I do have a copy for guitar, organ and SATB. My church's choir is not composed of professionals or music students so I can't expect them to pick it up and start singing. In fact, I don't know if it has any kind of choir for funerals (haven't had to go to a funeral there yet).

    Alleluia: Psalm 99 (S. Somerville, Tr. By S. Somerville),

    Offertory Hymn: O Lord With Wondrous Mystery (Hedrick Andrissen, Michael Gannon, alt.),

    Communion: Draw Near O Lord Our God (Attende Domine,)

    Recessional Hymn: Psalm 150 (Jan Vermulst, English version by Mark Evans).

    These are my favorite hymns and are all from the People’s Mass Book 1966 edition (World Library of Sacred Music, Low Range, Unison). I miss that hymnal!

    AND NO PIANO OR GUITARS! (Are parishes ashamed that the best alternative is the organ?)

    I don't expect that I will die soon (but I want to be prepared). I've already designed with the actual paper program for the Mass, including scans from all of the hymns as well as the readings from Old and New Testaments and the General Intercessions. Everything will be on 8.5”x11” paper and so far I have 16 pages. I really don’t have any friends where I live so I’d be really surprised if more than 20 family members from both my and my husband’s side (they’re-gasp!-Baptist).

    Why must funerals have sad, sappy hymns about death? The vestment color changed from black to white so why can’t the hymns be more upbeat?

    One last question, do I have to pay royalties for these hymns?
    Thanked by 1Jehan_Boutte
  • Why must funerals have sad, sappy hymns about death? The vestment color changed from black to white so why can’t the hymns be more upbeat?
    Because even at Easter, when we literally celebrate the Resurrection, the music is hardly "upbeat". (c.f. Victimae paschali laudes)
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CCooze
  • It depends on the occasion. I have arranged the details of my Funeral Mass (which, God willing, will not be celebrated before many years): an OF Mass in French, ad orientem, with Gregorian Ordinary and Propers (including the Dies Irae).

    But my dream Mass would be a Solemn High Mass in the Parisian Use, with French plainsong Propers (with verses everywhere, especially at the Offertory) and Henry Dumont's "Missa Regia", along with some good hymns taken from the Genevan psalter or Catholic sources.
    Apart from that, I would take one of Daquin's Noel to be played before Mass (this one for example: ) and "If ye love me" as a motet somewhere in the Mass (maybe during Communion).
  • The vestment color changed from black to white so why can’t the hymns be more upbeat?

    And some among us would count this a travesty and liturgical disfigurement of the highest order. I've specifically told my pastor that if I were to die a sudden/early death, I want black everything.

    To be perfectly frank, I'm sick and tired of everyone pretending like every soul skips right into heaven 2 seconds after death. Our Lady revealed at Fatima that souls are falling into hell "like snowflakes". St. Bridget (mystic and patroness of all Europe) witnessed one moment of judgement and saw thousands of souls standing in judgement at that particular moment (all of whom had died in the preceding minute or so) and almost all of them went to hell, a small handful (30 or so) went to purgatory and only two or three souls (memory is hazy now) went straight to heaven, one of whom was a professed religious (again, out of THOUSANDS being judged at that specific moment).

    So, more to the point, the liturgists who hacked apart the traditional liturgy did indeed have an agenda in mind when they did it and it was undoubtedly to lessen belief in the severity of judgement and it worked. People are very flippant about death now. If it was still custom to drape everything in and dress in black (including a months-long period of mourning for immediate family), listening to the dies irae, and paying for rounds of 30 gregorian masses to be said, I suspect people would think much more differently about death and would pray for their loved ones much more.

    Talk about upbeat music... read through the dies irae which was traditionally sung at requiem masses and which I've had the "pleasure" (if you can call it that) of chanting at a funeral before, and then try and tell me that a radical change wasn't enacted in our liturgy and by consequence, our theology about death.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CCooze
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,219
    Not to mention the fact that no music ought to be played via CD in a liturgical context, the funeral Mass does not include a Gloria, @packardgrrl
    Thanked by 2Schönbergian CCooze
  • @irishtenor: That shows you how long since I've been to a funeral.

    And I spent all that money and time looking for the Peloquin Mass of Joy!
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,355
    The thing is..the deceased has no control over what happens or doesn't happen at his/her funeral Mass. Can't require anyone to do or not do a thing. (It's especially funny when people try to require So-and-So to do X for the funeral in his/her will, which won't be probated until some time after the funeral, and has no terrorizing power over non-beneficiaries.)
  • All I'd like to see for me would be a Solemn (or at least Cantata) Requiem. I love Victoria a6 but if I were the deceased it'd be the celebration of the Mass that would matter to me more than anything. I definitely would not want a standard-fare funeral. Oh, and I'd want some really good incense too.
  • I've always dreamed of having Tallis's Spem in alium nunquam habui as the offertory anthem at my requiem. Of course, that's a dream (fantasy) that is far from likely to happen. So, I would settle for Sicut cervus. Other music would be a Tomkins voluntary beforehand, Purcell's funeral sentences at the procession, all readings sung, Anglican chant psalm, Gregorian mass and propers (including dies irae) all Englished a la Palmer-Burgess (except for Greek Kyrie), and Tallis's Verily, verily, I say unto you for a communion anthem - and Heut triumphiret Gottes Sohn from the Orgelbuchlein for the final voluntary. Every last conceivable word (with the possible exception of the homily) will be sung.
    And, of course, I share Casavant's insistence on high quality incense - preferably from a Greek monastery.

    In the Ordinariate it is black for funerals and Good Friday.
  • In the Ordinariate it is black for funerals and Good Friday.

    See, I knew the Ordinariate was Catholic!
  • Yes, Chris -
    There are those who think that we are Protestants in sheep's clothing.
    To others we are too Catholic for them.
    I have observed that if the liturgical precepts of Vatican II had been heeded Catholic liturgy today would be not terribly unlike that of the Ordinariate - save, of course, for the Prayer Book English.
  • Since the topic of this thread is a dream Mass programme, I think I would include music of Tallis, Byrd, Isaac, Stanford... and would exclude Missa de Angelis

    Maybe the Byrd Mass for 4 voices, or Vittoria's Requiem; Stanford's Beati quorum via integra est, which is positively sublime.
  • I agree, Chris -
    The de Angelis is soooo overdone.
    There are so many others that are superior in beauty and superior as chant.
    Fr Columba had nary a good word (and quite a few bad words) for it.
    There's hardly more to it than an A-Major arpeggio.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Jehan_Boutte
  • There are those who think that we are Protestants in sheep's clothing.

    Well, if this is Protestantism, Catholics should have no problem with it!

    Since the topic of this thread is a dream Mass programme, I think I would include music of Tallis, Byrd, Isaac, Stanford... and would exclude Missa de Angelis

    Maybe the Byrd Mass for 4 voices, or Vittoria's Requiem; Stanford's Beati quorum via integra est, which is positively sublime.

    De Angelis is overdone, sure (though I really like it). But I am not sure I would go so far as to put a polyphonic Mass instead, since the Kyriale ordinarily belongs to the congregation.
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores CCooze
  • I'm no enormous fan of Mass VIII, but for OF parishes attempting to use a dignified chant ordinary setting on Sundays and feasts, it is the next logical step after the missal chants. The Gloria is probably the most congregationally-singable Gloria in the Gregorian repertoire, and the whole setting has the advantage of feeling "major" and joyful to the unmusical PIPs. This helps people to not see chant as "minor" and "dreary," etc. I know very well that chant ISN'T those things, but it is hard to convince people fed on a diet of "major = happy, minor = sad" that settings like IX or XI are joyful and beautiful. Also, the old-timers in the pews had it drilled into their heads back in the day, so they tend to pick it back up quickly. Mass IX is definitely my favorite.
    Thanked by 1Jehan_Boutte
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,540
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,540
    O my gosh?!?!? I just figured out how to do an MJO... see previous post
    Thanked by 1bhcordova
  • I've learned Mass IV, and prefer it immensely to Mass VIII. It's quite singable all the waya around.
    Thanked by 2MatthewRoth tomjaw
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,681
    Thanked by 2francis bhcordova
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,681
    Sorry for the purple-yellow levity.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,540
    Show off! ;)
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen bhcordova
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,382
    Mass IV is preferred in the chapel where I go to Mass these days for feasts and external solemnities (All Saints, Saint Francis de Sales, and the like) which fall on Sunday and are not Marian (Mass IX, always). Sometimes we do VIII on other occasions, but IV is much, much better.

    As for a dream Mass, I don't know. I go back and forth on wanting all-chant, on Palestrina versus Victoria, on the appropriate Baroque keyboard or wind music for the entrance and exits… 
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Dream Mass with unlimited resources... I'd have to give that some serious thought. But I am working on my "realistic and achievable" dream Solemn High Nuptial Mass for my wedding this April, which will include:

    Organ Prelude: French-style improv on Nuptial Propers
    Choral Prelude: If Ye Love Me, Tallis
    Bridal Party Procession: Organ, but still deliberating; probably French Romantic...
    Bride's Procession: Thaxted (at my bride-to-be's request)
    Propers: Gregorian Propers of the Nuptial Mass
    Ordinary: Missa Papae Marcelli, Palestrina
    Offertory Motet: Regina Caeli a 5, Victoria
    Communion Motet: Ubi Caritas, Gjeilo
    Flowers to BVM: Ave Maria, Biebl
    Recessional: Final from Sonata 1, Guilmant

    (sidenote: if anyone in the PA region is looking for a gig, I'm still in need of one more soprano for the polyphony; possibly another alto as well)
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,681