Big 3 - What is actually good?
  • KyleM18
    Posts: 150
    Just looking at the LicenSing/OneLicense merger forum, I can tell that there is mixed opinions about the quality of the Big 3. This leads me to ask, as a musician forced to rely on the big 3 (OCP, GIA, and WLP), what is actually good? I have some ideas (Fr. Chepponis and the St. meinrad antiphons come to mind), but would like to here more, as I'm helping build up a music program at a nearby parish. I understand that there is a lot of bad stuff in all 3 (anyone with an ear can notice that), but am not looking for the bad, only the good. Thank you!

    Kyle M.

    [EDIT] Maybe I should give some background. I'm helping out at a parish that uses the Gather 3 hymnals. Each choir has been given permission to print out supplements, if need be. As a developing choir, we use mostly music from the hymnal, with our choral pieces coming from GIA. I am hoping to add the "St. Meinrad Abbey Propers" from OCP as the antiphons (partially because they are in modern notation...), and am wondering how much of the other music they publish outside of hymnals is any good, mostly in terms of choral music or music from outside the hymnal.
  • Are you seeking hymnal recommendations?
    Other?
    Could you be more specific?
    Certainly, you couldn't do better than the Lumen Christi Hymnal and its ancillary missal.
    The Simple English Propers is a good beginner's resource.
    Thanked by 2Don9of11 KyleM18
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 708
    When you say you're looking for just the good, do you mean hymnody that is doctrinal, devotional and traditional? You could look at the Adoremus hymnal, the Vatican II hymnal, Lumen Christi as mentioned above. The best thing I'm finding is to educate yourself on what's good and bad. I recommend a couple of books recently published "The Story of Hymns" by Fr. George Rutler and "Real Music" by Anthony Esolen. You could visit the Devotional Hymns website, there's a lot of good stuff there.
    Thanked by 1KyleM18
  • KyleM18
    Posts: 150
    Sorry, I did not mean hymnals. I meant any songs or resources anyone has used that are published by OCP, WLP, or GIA. Song/Choral collections especially are helpful (i.e. the St. Meinrad Abbey Propers, Weissman's "Mass in honor of St. Ignatius", etc.) I understand that most of you use mostly PD stuff, but that generally seems to be a little bit more difficult.

    After being trained for nearly a decade that traditional music was bad, I've sorta lost my sense of what exactly is good when it comes to the choral music published by the Big 3 (Hymn quality is often glaringly obvious). Thank you.

    [EDIT] Maybe I should give some background. I'm helping out at a parish that uses the Gather 3 hymnals. Each choir has been given permission to print out supplements, if need be. As a developing choir, we use mostly music from the hymnal, with our choral pieces coming from GIA. I am hoping to add the "St. Meinrad Abbey Propers" from OCP as the antiphons (partially because they are in modern notation...), and am wondering how much of the other music they publish outside of hymnals is any good, mostly in terms of choral music or music from outside the hymnal.
  • What is your personal definition of good?

    It's commonly overlooked that most Big 3 hymnals have at least the 200 or so most common English old hymns in them. You can get a long way with that.

    Other things to be aware of:
    -David Haas and Marty Haugen recently redid many of their psalm settings to remove paraphrases and fit the exact words of the Grail translation. https://www.giamusic.com/search_details.cfm?title_id=19016
    -chant resources from GIA: https://www.giamusic.com/sacred_music/chantbooks.cfm#other_resources
    -chant resources from OCP: https://www.giamusic.com/sacred_music/chantbooks.cfm#other_resources

    If you are looking for contemporary music that has appropriate lyrics:

    I really like what Ricky Manalo is doing, including:
    -Apserges Me, Domine
    -Worthy Is the Lamb
    -O Word Of God

    Curtis Stephan has some good stuff, in particular:
    -Miracle of Grace
    -Pastures of the Lord
    -Ready the Way
    -Mass of Renewal

    Matt Maher had some good songs that he wrote while still working for OCP:
    -Adoration (an adaptation of Tantum Ergo)
    -Set Me As A Seal
    -Your Grace Is Enough

    I went through the index of Breaking Bread and I think the following are theologically correct and singable to a congregation, though some on here may not like the style:
    -10,000 Reasons (Redman)
    -Be Not Afraid (Dufford)
    -Blessed Are They (Haas)
    -Center of My Life (Inwood)
    -Christ Be Our Light (Farell)
    -Come to the Water (Foley)
    -Earthen Vessels (Foley)
    -Eye Has Not Seen (Haugen)
    -Gift of Finest Wheat (Proulx)
    -Hail Mary: Gentle Woman (Landry)
    -Holy Is His Name (Talbot)
    -I Am The Bread of Life (Toolan)
    -I Have Loved You (Joncas)
    -Like a Shepherd (Dufford)
    -O God Beyond All Praising (Perry)
    -One Bread One Body (Foley)
    -Only This I Want (Schutte)
    -Open My Eyes (Manibusan)
    -Only A Shadow (Ackley)
    -Our God Is Here (Muglia)
    -Pescador de Hombres (Gabarin)
    -Shelter Me O God (Hurd)
    -Shepherd Me O God (Haugen)
    -Take and Eat (Joncas)
    -There Is A Longing (Quigley)
    -You Are Mine (Haas)

    Others, off the top of my head:
    -Take Up Your Cross (Haas)
    -Shout to the Lord (Zschech)
    -The Cry of the Poor (Foley)
    Thanked by 1KyleM18
  • Replying to Menefulent's comment from another thread:

    IN EVERY AGE - Sullivan Whitaker
    LAUDATE DOMINUM - Walker
    WITH ALL THE SAINTS - B. Hurd
    PASTURES OF THE LORD - Stephan
    MANY AND GREAT - Manalo


    In Every Age - seems pretty good. I've never heard it in a church before.

    Laudate Dominum - I really like this!

    With All the Saints - I like this song a lot. I did not realize it was modern - I had thought it was an old hymn, despite my usual habit of meticulously reading composer credits in hymnals.

    Pastures of the Lord - I like this song a lot, although I worry about its difficulty. Never seen it done in a church. As mentioned above, Curtis Stephan is one of my favorite OCP composers!

    Many and Great - I like Ricky Manalo a lot, but in this case this song just didn't do it for me. I thought it was a little bland and boring without a great text to make up for that fact.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I was hoping for a skosh more critical analysis. Alas.
    I do suggest you familiarize yourself with much of Janet Sullivan Whitaker's works; worth the time. I'm accompanying her down in Anaheim this week. We shared the same composition mentor in university.

    not Menefulent.
  • I will restate that the Lumen Christi Hymnal is a resource with impeccable contents, both of SATB and plainchant hymnody. At least a reference copy of this should be on your shelf.

    Ditto the Parish Book of Chant. Although several of its editorial policies are unfortunate, resulting in its being a less praiseworthy volume than it might have been, it remains an outstanding book that should serve you well.

    You would certainly find Adam Bartlett's Simple English Propers useful in a situation such as yours.

    Follow through with your discovery of Fr Columba's work, which should be fundamental in your methods. Plus! Plan to attend his chant workshop next summer. You can find details on St Meinrad's website. (Ask for one of St Meinrad's retreat brochures.) From Fr Columba you will discover the soul of chant and its performance. (And, a week at St Meinrad's will yield you a rich spiritual harvest!)

    It is good to keep in mind that there is an objective definition and standard of 'good'. It is exemplified by music from that historic treasury of music which the Church singled out at Vatican II as a treasure greater than any other. This treasury of sacred music is the Church's paradigm of the objectively 'good' with respect to sacred music that is appropriate for liturgy.
    'Good' is not a subjective thing of one's 'personal definition'. It has objective, universal, parameters, which may be inferred from that 'treasure greater than any other'.

    Likewise, 'I like' and 'I really like' does not necessarily equate with the objectively 'good'. There is a plethora of music that people play and sing because 'I like it' that isn't objectively 'good'. Comments such as these tell you nothing at all about the artistic quality or objective merits of the music in question.

    A word or two about texts that are 'good' (which i suspect you already know!) - distinguish between what might be appropriate for a devotional or para-liturgical service and what is appropriate at mass, office, or ritual. The former may permit of some degree of subjectivity in text, admitting of personal feelings expressed by 'I' and 'we' and so forth. Liturgical texts are quite a different matter. The focus here is strictly objective and addresses or extols the object of worship. Here, hymns or anthems which focus on 'me', 'us', 'I', 'we', 'our', and so forth are absolutely inappropriate. So: subjectivity in text may be appropriate at non-liturgical services and gatherings; objectivity focusing on the object of worship is a requisite of musical texts at liturgical and ritual acts.

    You seem to have been blessed with the wisdom to have seen the artistic and creative fraudulence inherent in much of the music that you were introduced subjected to in your earlier years. Continue to discriminate and to discern what has truly objective artistic merit, literary value, and consonance with the Church's paradigm.

    If, as you say, you are using one of the Gather hymnals you will find a bare minimum of respectable hymnody in it, with tunes such as St Denio, Down Ampney, Darwall, Iste Confessor, Lauda anima, Laudate Dominum, Rouen, and so forth, paired with texts of impeccable literary merit, based on scripture or exquisite original poetry. Compare any music and texts that you encounter with the likes of these, with chant, with the historic choral repertory, and you will be well guided in your choices.
  • melofluent - sorry for the typo! I will go into more detail tomorrow providing time allows!
  • KyleM18
    Posts: 150
    Personal definition of Good: Theologically appropriate and of some musical substance. I am familiar with the Lumen Christi Hymnal and Missal, but am not in the market to buy them. I do have a reference copy of each, as I would like to sometimes use one of the Office hymns included. Fortunately, we are allowed to (occasionally) print out a song sheet or two.

    So, I take it the general consensus on this forum is to avoid the Big 3 as much as possible. If I may dare to ask, are there any choral works/arrangements that can be bought from these companies that are any good?
  • You ask, Kyle, about any choral works/arrangements.
    Do you mean by this easy motets or anthems?
    For a choir of some description?

    If so, I'll enumerate some tomorrow evening.
    There are some good octavos by GIA (I don't know about the 'Other Two'), which I can suggest to you.
    (You could ask them to send you their current music catalogue.)
    All of the RSCM offerings are available from GIA.
    They do have several anthologies of early music as well as some by better modern (as opposed to merely 'contemporary') composers.
    They do publish things by Palestrina and Tallis, Schutz, and so forth - though their editions are not often comparable to those of publishers who provide us with the finest scholarship.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    First, they all have some Mass settings worth considering.

    GIA has some specialized series of choral publications:
    https://www.giamusic.com/sacred_music/choralseries.cfm

    Most of the OCP choral material that I've seen consists of arrangements of the same music in their hymnals, so that doesn't seem interesting.

    If you want to try using hymn introits by Tietze or Pluth, then WLP has those.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • GIA is also the USA agent for Taize, which has some awesome stuff.
  • To echo chonak, the Big 3 publishers have SATB choral arrangements for 90% of what they put in a hymnal. Whether this music is of theological and artistic value is of debate. I reference my earlier post as to my opinions on songs from their cataloge that meet these standards in my personal opinion.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    I recommend everything by Kathleen Pluth.
  • If you want to do anything as far as inserts or programs, you should engrave your own PD hymns or take PDFs of them. None of the big 3 (IMO) have hymns which are any good (I've sang them all and the congregation either won't sing or they sound to entertainment-worthy).

    If you want a hymnal, I'd look here: http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/6440/comparison-of-hymnals-st.-michael-vatican-ii-worship-iv-adoremus-etc./p1
    Thanked by 2Don9of11 hilluminar
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    GIA also has a great collection of Sacred Choral Music from the Ars Antiqua Choralis series, mostly edited by Richard Proulx. Granted that many of these pieces are available for FREE from CPDL, but often these editions include English singing-translations not in original sources.

    http://www.giamusic.com/product_search.cfm?loc=adv&advanced=1&title=&person=&tunename=&topical=&bibleref=&rites=&season=&sunday_feast=&vocalforces=&instrincl=&accompaniment=&language=&series=Ars+Antiqua&submit=Search
  • Sidebar: "Big 3" vastly overestimates the bigness of WLP in comparison to GIA and OCP
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    I just remembered one particular thing: Lindusky's arrangements of Renaissance motets, set to English texts, are probably worth some time.
    http://www.wlp.jspaluch.com/2941.htm
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 708
    I will say at our parish we use a lot of WLP especially the Lectionary Psalms and Gospel Acclamations and Andrew Motyka's communion antiphons. I think the website is communionantiphons.org . We also are using the Mass of St. Frances Cabrini though this is a Diocesan requirement for Cleveland diocese.
    Thanked by 1KyleM18
  • It is slim pickings from the 'Big 3' - their catalogues are saturated with garbage.
    IMHO:
    Russell Weismann's Mass of St Ignatius and Advent Antiphons are worthy of your attention (GIA)
    Latona's Mandatum (GIA) is a fine piece for Maundy Thursday
    The St Meinrad propers are a good resource (OCP)
    Christopher Walker has a decent set of choral communion antiphons(OCP) that may come in handy
    Pluth's Hymn Tune Introits (WLP) are good, but need a lot of work (verses, melodies, etc)
    R Clark's propers (WLP) are handy perhaps
    When the Tietze Hymn Tune Introits are good when they work, but they are a mixed bag (WLP)

    Obvs, there are other gems to be found, but it does take a lot of wading through the mire.

    Try looking at MorningStar Music. There are some good things to find there too.

    There is a long way to go.
    Thanked by 2KyleM18 Spriggo
  • It is slim pickings from the 'Big 3' - their catalogues are saturated with garbage.


    Really, give them a break. If they published only music that we like and want, their workers would be looking for jobs.

    The problem is not that they publish it. The problem is that Catholic musicians won't buy anything else.

    The lack of education by the church is the reason along with the Catholic theft of intellectual property by the musicians.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,827
    a similar big three

    one may slightly differ from the other

    Macdonalds, Burger King and Wendy's

    as Gaffigan says, It's all junk but it tastes good going down!
  • I'll grant that Noel is half right.
    If publishers had the integrity and responsibility to the general welfare only to publishe worthy music and literature there would not be anything else to buy, and the majority of people who are the victims of those who prefer to evangelise junk would not know that junk existed.
    If publishers as skillfully marketed Byrd and Lauridsen as they do the detritus that they prefer to market everyone would be far better off.
    No! They don't deserve a break because they have no integrity.

    The junk that is in our churches is the hallmark of a very artificially created and marketed culture which is shielded by the twin fig leaves of 'pastoral concerns' and 'inculturation'.

    And, as Francis notes, it may taste good going down (if one hasn't any taste) but wreaks havoc upon one's spiritual and intellectual health.
  • Since the purpose of this thread is to speak positively about music from the Big Three, I heartily agree with Jackson and Francis.

    The genre itself is ill-suited to the worship of God because that isn't the end for which it has been created. Some of it is catchy (but so is measles) and some of it gets stuck in the ear (or the heart) but since its purpose is to replace what properly belongs at certain points in the Mass, it's a squatter, a carpetbagger.


    Thanked by 2hilluminar eft94530