Bare-minimum parish organ advice?
  • I'm a volunteer amateur music director for two small (80-150) english masses at a poor Hispanic parish.

    A talented and overworked college piano major from the Spanish mass has saved our bacon by playing piano with us the last couple years.

    We have an old but decent electronic organ in our choir loft behind the piano, and I hear good things about the use of organ at mass.

    Obviously the "norm" is get a teacher and train in proper technique, but given that she has limited time to practice, I see a few options:

    1. Just have her keep doing everything on piano
    2. Ask her to at least jump over to the organ during mass to accompany the simpler stuff. And see if I can find her a lovely prelude that's around this difficulty level.
    3. Buy her an organ tutorial book to practice a bit on her own. (Already hear the snorts of derision; shielding my face from any stray snot)
    4. Try to sign her up for occasional organ instruction.

    I'm curious which course you would suggest, and which material you would suggest to that end (Try to choose carefully: the less options, the better). After combing the forum, I'm considering buying The Organist's Manual, to have her play around with, and maybe even try some of it myself. But at that price, I want to be really sure it'll pay off.

    Any tips or advice is warmly appreciated. Thanks in advance; you guys are great :)
    Thomas
  • MarkS
    Posts: 282
    Many people, even fairly sophisticated musicians, fail to realize how entirely different the organ and piano are as instruments. (But they both have keys!) Physically and musically the instruments need to be approached entirely differently. Seating an excellent pianist at an organ console unprepared is going to result in a lot of clunky, awkward playing—if they can figure out how to turn it on. (Same for trained organists sitting at the piano—although I know some who think they're doing just fine! Spoken as a fairly accomplished pianist who has been working seriously at the organ for 25+ years—and is still working at it!) There is also the matter of registration which non-organists typically don't realize is an issue. There's a lot to know! And this is to not even mention the pedals. (But, honestly, you could spend an entire lifetime playing appropriate music at a Catholic church and never need to touch the pedals. It would however be desirable to be able to use them!).

    Judging from the question, I think princehal suspects this. So, my choice would be choice 4., at a minimum! Preferably, if the organ is to be played at church, I would recommend hiring a trained organist. But if your pianist is willing to invest a little time, see if you can get her to someone local for some introductory lessons, at least. In my area there are several people who will arrange to meet you at the organ you will be playing services on, which is a tremendous advantage.

    However, the description of the instrument is not encouraging. If it's a nice piano, perhaps you are better off staying with the piano (spoken as one who is generally against using a piano). Any chance of some long-term planning to get a suitable instrument in there? And an appropriate budget for hiring musicians?
    Thanked by 1princehal
  • Very little budget. I like the current electronic one though, and I'd much rather spend any cash on singers then a new organ. (The other option might be to hook up some keyboards to my MacBook pro and plug it into the sound system :P)

    So MarkS, if I'm hearing you right, you'd say A piano is more suitable for liturgical accompaniment than an [edit: electronic] organ that is played without formal training. Is that accurate?

    Meanwhile, I'll be looking into the occasional lesson. :)

    Thanks again for the help!
  • MarkS
    Posts: 282
    So MarkS, if I'm hearing you right, you'd say A piano is more suitable for liturgical accompaniment than an organ that is played without formal training. Is that accurate?


    The organ is the best instrument for liturgical accompaniment, and I am generally against using the piano, particularly for congregational singing. No, what I meant is that piano might be preferable to the particular electronic 'instrument' at your disposal—but that's another thread! (Pipe organ purists—my side—vs. those that think digital/electronic instruments are a legitimate option.) If you are happy with it, then use it.

    Best of luck!
    Thanked by 1princehal
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Given the ideal is a well-trained player on a high-quality (real) pipe organ, and given an inability to reach that ideal, it seems you are trying to answer the question:

    - Is good piano playing better than bad organ playing?

    (You may parse "bad organ playing" both as bad playing of an organ and playing of a bad organ.)

    My opinion is no.

    But, you seem to be forgetting that there is another option: Neither piano nor organ playing.

    This is an frequently overlooked option. We (both church musicians and non-musical church leaders) too-often conflate "church musician" with the specific skill of playing white-and-black keys with fingers (and sometimes toes). There is, of course, more to it than that.

    And a larger option: A judicious mix of organ, piano, and unaccompanied singing.

    And yet another option: Any string players in your midst?


    Most problems can be more easily solved by reframing.

  • Correctly has it been pointed out that the piano and organ are not at all alike, save only in that they share a keyboard by which are sounded, by fundamentally different means, diatonically tuned strings or pipes. Beyond that, the similarities diminish - particularly in touch, attack, articulation, manipulation of tone duration, expressivity, and on and on, not to mention the matter of how to handle and register the different ranks of pipes: which ones compliment each other, and which ones are not-so-good or even amusing combinations. Learning to discern what sounds right and what doesn't is an art in itself.

    However, an intelligent pianist-musician may very well quite readily learn to feel the difference and adapt how to achieve a musical result on the organ. Learning or intuiting finger substitution for expressive linear execution is, perhaps, most fundamental. It won't be perfect or well-tutored, but it may, with some careful experimentation, result in a passable performance, one which would be preferable to the piano in church services. The organ is always preferable. (I did say 'organ', and not 'simulacrum'.) The piano is never a desirable instrument for liturgy. (I did say 'never'.)

    At least as critical as touch, I think, is the matter of registering complimentary stops. Understanding the basic difference betwixt principals and flutes, the uniqueness of reeds, and a grasp of what mutations and mixtures are for will give the amateur a reasonable basis for decent playing. This knowledge may be had with a few lessons from a reputable organist, or, if necessary, from a good method book, such as Gleason.

    A pianist who is being asked to do the work of an organist should ask him- or herself whether he is willing to engage in a minimum of study (with a teacher, or, if absolutely necessary, alone with a method book) which will result in at least passable organ playing. Some pianists have done quite well at this - relatively speaking. Others should not have bothered. This really hinges on the native musicianship and intelligence of the respective pianist.
  • Sounds good. I just now remembered that Wheaton College's phenomenal organ program is in my backyard so I think I'll get some instruction there for myself, and if it's good I'll start hinting to my pianist ;).

    Good reminder, Adam. Most problems can be more easily solved by reframing. Yes, I'm putting some a capella plainsong into OT as well (advent and lent are 90% a capella here), and I'm getting some homeschooled kids to play strings as well. I much, much prefer acoustic to electric in liturgy.

    Yeah, MJM, I'd been suspecting that the strong resistance against a pianist playing organ assumed that the pianist was musically oblivious... though I do admit that that assumption gets proved right all too often. :( But I'd also assumed that a sensitive musician, with minimal trial and error, could keep it from sounding totally horrible... :)
  • In addition to the above one should wish to convey an ancillary-but-indispensable aspect of learning the organ: hearing it played well and assimilating what good organ playing sounds like. Whether one studies with a decent teacher or, of necessity, teaches oneself from a method, no real accomplishment can be made unless one knows and understands what good organ playing sounds like and brings his musical intelligence into play to imitate it. A musical imagination fired by some grasp of the effects of good organ playing is essential.

    With such apprehension a talented pianist-musician can, with his or her native musical intelligence intuit much, and adapt his technique in such manner as to produce the sounds, the tonal ethos, of the organ with which he or she has become familiar.

    There is no substitute for this aspect of learning the organ.

    Attend recitals. Listen to CDs. Listen to literally anything you can imagine on youtube. Attend well-played liturgies at Episcopal cathedrals and such. If one is fortunate, he may find a Catholic parish with intelligent liturgy and organ playing - but this will be a relative rarity.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    In addition to the above one should wish to convey an ancillary-but-indispensable aspect of learning the organ: hearing it played well and assimilating what good organ playing sounds like.


    This. This for everything. For all instruments. For singing. For writing. For painting. For building software. This. This. This.

    The explosion of auto-didacticism is an amazing trend, which I have benefitted from and do not wish to denigrate. But at the same time we have to give up our Romantic individualist notions that we alone can find the beautiful and true in our disciplines. We must form our sense of beauty. We must know what is possible. Even if we want to expand, change, or move away from what has been done before. (Especially then, really, because without deep understanding of a tradition to push against, artists seeking to innovate will often just repeat old mistakes and reinvent tired cliches.)

  • MarkS
    Posts: 282
    I'd been suspecting that the strong resistance against a pianist playing organ assumed that the pianist was musically oblivious...


    Actually, not in my case. I was speaking from experience! I'm a former hot shot young pianist (Pre-College Juilliard, Tanglewood Piano Institute, six years at Boston University School of Music, etc..., he said, modestly) and I'm a pretty damn good musician. But it took a long time for me to make the adjustment. Perhaps my standards are higher than otherwise?

    If we are talking about making it through a hymn on the manuals in reasonable shape, I guess that probably wouldn't take too long—with a little guidance, self-administered or not. I guess I wasn't really thinking in those terms.
  • Adam Wood for the win again. A cappella is a perfectly legitimate and over-neglected option.

    I learned my organ technique from the Gleason Method. I'm not a dazzling professional by any means, but I can play for Mass.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Adam Wood for the win again.


    Never tired of it.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • If we are talking about making it through a hymn on the manuals in reasonable shape, I guess that probably wouldn't take too long—with a little guidance, self-administered or not. I guess I wasn't really thinking in those terms.

    Right. I am thinking in terms of my reality. A reality that consists of a good pianist, a mediocre piano, a fake organ, very simple chants and hymns, and the freedom to combine these in any way I choose. It's quite a simple reality... for which I should probably be thankful :\

    MJO: Yes, an eloquent reminder that why the **** aren't I making more effort to go to the city and watch the masters at work? Because I'm stuck in this autodidact obsession that assumes that the internet and my inner brilliance is all I need. Which it is I guess, if I don't mind the total talent of all the generations before me being lost to the generation after. :P
  • Prince - your royal highness:
    Whence the 'princehal' moniker?
    It reminds me of my absolute favourite Sunday comic strip of years ago, namely, Prince Valiant, known also as Prince Hal. who flourished in those times approximate to the Roman empire's dissolution.
    The art was unique in the comic strip world, quite tastefully beautiful and, for the most part, historically accurate.

    As for autodictats - time was when they were a relatively rare species of self tutored geniuses who garnered great admiration, renown, and respect.
    I just recently heard one, a young French pianist who has placed third in the Tchaikovsky Piano Competitions in Moscow.
    Now, it seems, thanks to the internet, they are becoming 'a dime a dozen'.
    It is good for education that the internet has opened up new worlds to many who, otherwise, would languish in ignorance.
    However, there are invaluable aspects of intellectual rigour, professorial lineage, and other qualities to a systematic academic education that cannot be 'picked up' on the internet, or anywhere else.
  • Well said.
    Ha... yeah I didn't know I was supposed to use my real name when they asked me to create an account to download something or other at the colloquium and now I can't change it.... Prince Hal is just Shakespeare role I like.

    What a coincidence, my sister just got her kids a half-dozen big hardback collections of Prince Valiant a couple months ago and I was just reading them for the first time.... But I thought it was Prince Val?
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Prince Hal is just Shakespeare role I like.


    I played the Dauphin in a local production of Henry V. I suppose this makes us mortal enemies now.

    Although in fairness, the English monarch shows great taste in Gregorian chant on the battlefield ("Let there be sung Non Nobis and Te Deum . . .")
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Before anyone talks too much about "real" (meaning) pipe organs - consider also the cost of climate control which may be needed to keep a decent number of pipes in tune.

    Just sayin'.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Our former pastor used to compare maintaining a pipe organ to keeping up a Rolls-Royce. I thought that a bit of exaggeration, but pipe organ maintenance isn't cheap.
  • It's not cheap, but just like the maintenance on the Rolls-Royce, it's worth it.
  • It's not cheap,...

    Not cheap, but it pales in light of the cost of replacing
    a simulacrum every 25 years (if, indeed, it lasts that long).
    I find it disingenuous that those who rail about the ancillary costs of owning an organ
    never mention those of owning a simulacrum (things will go wrong with it!) - not to mention its total replacement somewhere within three decades.
    And that's not at all to consider what it doesn't sound like.

    (And, I think that the Rolls-Royce comparison is a little gratuitous much! Another insouciant dictum tossed into the fray by otherwise unqualified [or unrepentantly biased] commentators.)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982

    (And, I think that the Rolls-Royce comparison is a little gratuitous much! Another insouciant dictum tossed into the fray by otherwise unqualified [or unrepentantly biased] commentators.)


    The pastor who made that comment was a long-time AGO member who understood the costs of organ maintenance and was definitely qualified. As I said, he was exaggerating a bit for effect, I think.

    Agreed on the electronics. I have witnessed churches going through two or three of them. They could have bought one good instrument from the Organ Clearing House for the total costs of those multiple electronics.

    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • It's the initial sticker shock for the uninitiated, and for the initiated, it's the shock of having to explain that sticker shock to the uninitiated. Two circumstances emerge when discussing the price of an organ:

    1. The pastor does not understand the product, therefore he cannot justify the price. Combine that with maintenance and other associated costs, and it becomes overwhelming for him to think about.

    2. The pastor understands very well what he is purchasing, and the associated costs, but he cannot justify it to the parish finance council, because he knows THEY don't understand.

    It's another case of serving money. A piano is immediately cheaper, an electronic is immediately cheaper, and so they just purchase those instruments instead of a proper pipe organ. They're not thinking about the longevity a pipe organ would have and that the instrument could easily serve the parish for at least 100 years with proper maintenance; they're thinking only about the here and now and what will make them look good to their "constituents." Spending $500,000+ on a pipe organ doesn't make sense when you could spend $50,000 on a grand piano, and use the remainder for things like wreckovations.

    N.B.: The amounts listed above are informed estimates from prices listed by vendors, obtained through a Google search.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    All too true, CK. The church seems to use the logic of "passing it on to my successor down the road." In other words, let some future pastor worry about it.
  • How many things in this world are maintenance-free?
    Air conditioning systems?
    Automobiles?
    Organ simulacra?
    Houses?
    Plumbing?
    Roofs?
    Churches?
    Yards?
    Kitchen stuff?
    Computer stuff?
    Copiers?
    Our own physical selves?
    Anything?

    None of the above and nothing else!

    So why the apoplexy over organ maintenance?
    I suspect that it's a handy non-reason for someone who doesn't want one in the first place and for whom any excuse will do. (And, it's a favourite of the simulacrum salesman.)
    Thanked by 1Jes
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    Use the Percy buck book it's ace.
    Also, start with metric hymns. My first one was firmly I believe and truly. Great hymn and nice for finger-feet work.
    I practice like so. Feet, LH and Feet, RH and Feet, LH and RH, LH and feet again and then I piece the jolly lot together.
    From there if that doesn't work I do just feet but sing soprano, then feet and alto, then feet and tenor. (My voice isn't low enough for bass but I just put up the octave and sing the note names with my feet.)
    It's actually a really fun way to practice.
    I started on piano and moved to organ and whilst keeping my piano up I must admit my organ playing is far better than my piano playing at present.

    @MJacksonOsborn you forgot to mention spouses, high maintenance but people still want them.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    when you could spend $50,000 on a grand piano,


    Or $2500. Or nothing.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982

    So why the apoplexy over organ maintenance?


    One thing that has made pipe organ maintenance more expensive is that fewer people go into that field. Technicians are not plentiful like they once were. I know of one excellent tech who changed jobs because he couldn't make enough to support his family.