Beautiful Organ Music is not only by French Composers.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Gaudens Gaudebo
    Richard J. Clark

    Live performance at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D. C. by organist, Rosalind Mohnsen:
    Video

    Order music.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,165
    Don't forget Johann Sebastian Bach.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    I'd say that Bach's more structural than impressionistic. It's grand music and superior in many ways to music of the French - even music of the same era as his. His French and English Suites are in the style, but the music is definitely Bach.

    Music reached a pinnacle with Bach and many feel that it has deteriorated ever since. The T&F in D minor is grand, the Widor is beautiful.

    For an American to write music of such beauty is a great accomplishment.
    Thanked by 1KyleM18
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,416
    Beautiful music not only by French composers?
    This is hardly news.
    Had the French had the good sense to follow the path blazed by Father Titelouze they might well have produced a Gallican Bach. But, they didn't and they didn't.

    There is more real music in almost any two bars of Bach than in all the organistic output of the French from de Grigny and Couperin until the XXth century giants who followed Tournemire, some Franck being the exception.

    There is much good coming from American pens... English ones, too.

    And, too much overlooked is the mid-XXth century re-interpretation of old methods (a continuity with the organ's historic liturgical role) by such Germans as Joseph Ahrens, Ernst Pepping, et al., which exhibit a refreshing cleanness and clarity of form and procedure after all that bloated symphonicism of the late XIXth and early XXth centuries.
    Thanked by 1MarkS
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Bach? Yuck! LOL Bad for the instrument. Lutheran dementia at its finest.

    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,191
    We do like to speak in large over-arching cliches around here, which I tire of very quickly. There is much organ music outside of the realm of France, including the English,German and American music. Each country has exhibited some wonderful efforts on the part of composers, but also efforts that are less than stellar.

    I play music from all of these time periods and though I possess a bias toward 20th century France, am not afraid to play any period or national school.

    Next.....
    Thanked by 1Richard Mix
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Same here. Lately I have been playing works by English composers along with my beloved French works. I think we all have our favorites.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I know I'm one of the few that champions and sings the praise of Italian organ works... but never forget the delightful Italian baroque works.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW M. Jackson Osborn
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Of course it is, Noel. When it comes to the organ, there's the French, then there's everybody else.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    y'all already know my preferences.

    MJO says it

    There is more real music in almost any two bars of Bach than in all the organistic output of the French from de Grigny and Couperin until the XXth century giants, some Franck being the exception.


    however Franck is no exception for me
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    What are the great Portuguese composers, and why are they considered great?
  • Antonio
    Posts: 43
    Yes, beautiful organ music is not only by french composers. But I think some objection (or less appreciation) of the 17 and 18th century french repertoire is explained by the fact that it demands peculiar tone stops and organ disposition, which one is not so common among modern organs. At least this is my personal conclusion after exploring french baroque/classical literature on a Hauptwerk-based virtual organ with a french sampleset recorded from the Boizard 1714 organ of the Saint Michel-en-Thiérache abbey and others. Compared to what I achieved with ordinary digital organ dispositions, and even with HW samplesets of non-french (nor french-like) organs, this gave me a whole new level of appreciation/realization for this kind of music.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    No question that American organs are nothing like French Baroque organs. It is difficult, sometimes impossible, to approximate authentic registrations.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    if one composes excellent music, registration is not an issue. excellent composition will perform beautifully utilizing any organ, orchestra, ensemble or choir (presuming it is an artistic interpretation worth hearing)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    No it won't. If you have a two manual, need a three, and no pedal reeds, you can have real problems trying to play that French music. It will sound nothing like the composer intended. Then there is reed voicing, another problem.

    I agree, some music can be played on anything. Some can't.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    Charles... you confirmed my thinking.

    It will sound nothing like the composer intended.
    Composer has highly overrated opinion of his work.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    If you are talking Marchand - one of my favorites - he had an overrated opinion of himself. LOL. Those instruments, however, had sounds and characteristics not found on modern organs. They seem to have loved tenor reeds in the pedal, and those pedals were a bit strange, as well. Peculiar instruments by today's standards, but I think they sounded good.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    If you can't play the music on any ensemble, in my opinion it is subgrade. However, this is only my opinion. The specification of which instrument, or what registration to utilize by the composer is a new innovation and highly overrated. The same is true about needing a conductor.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    You can play Bach on an accordion, but would you really want to? Although I have heard some local jokesters play Bach on a kazoo ensemble. Interesting, but not particularly edifying.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,318
    I have heard very good performances of Bach on accordion...
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    I have, too. The musicianship was excellent, even if I didn't like the instrument. Francis, however, has been a chief proponent of authentic instruments for playing Bach over the years. I am needling him a bit for indicating music can be played on anything, despite the composers intentions. I am wondering if he is secretly working for the mainstream media where the facts are arranged to fit the situation. LOL
  • FidemInFidebusFidemInFidebus
    Posts: 611
    I attended a recital of nothing but Langlais. It was entertaining but just not my thing. I really don't see myself ever wanting to learn any of his pieces. Couperin is ok sometimes, Rameau too...I'm not a raving fan of J.S. Bach, especially the more I study Buxtehude and learn just how much he "borrowed" from the old master. I'm partial to the south German composers i.e. Muffat, Pachelbel...

    Edited: yes I know Muffat wrote a lot of French style music. However, it was mixed with other styles that make it palatable...
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    Charles... I have never advocated that Bach needs to be performed on the organ. Ever. Please show me the link if you think that is the case (you have 7,253 links to choose from)

    look up Die kunst der fuge on Youtube and you will find many performances by various ensembles with an artistic interpretation that will stun the soul. Same goes for his organ works set to different instruments.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    7,254
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Maybe I have confused you with Jackson??? Who knows. Whether you or not, I have heard the authentic sound/tracker arguments plenty on this forum.

    I play French Baroque on the mighty Schantz but I know full well that instrument can't reproduce a genuine period organ. It still sounds good, I think, but is different.

    Muffat? I like him, too. The Tocatta Undecima is one of my favorites. I also like Walther.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,416
    The accordion?
    It and anything played on it is ipso facto both awful and bad.
    (Painfully awful.)
    (Oh, and did I leave out 'grotesque'?)
    I would rather hear Bach played on Charles' kazoo consort -
    at least both the performers and the hearers would know that it was and was intended to be amusing.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,416
    Charles has surprised me with his assessment of real French baroque instruments. I seem to recall (without rancour or insult) that he normally is rather fond of pulling the rug out from under 'period performance' arguments. At any rate, he is spot on in his above comments.

    There are few organs (even by our finest builders) in this country that faithfully can recreate, or very closely resemble, the sound of the French baroque instrument. For the most part we have to be satisfied if there is a strong reed in the pedal but for to suggest the Plein jeu with the plain chant en taille. It can be done. It can be satisfying (depending on the instrument). But the moment one hears a real French baroque trompette with its characteristic throaty nasality one's pleasure turns to envy. The same goes for other characteristic FB sounds. Often, the French music calls for a duo sur les tierces, etc. This is impossible on American organs, whose builders absolutely refuse to give us tierces on two manuals that are full compass. Without a basse de tierce these pieces cannot accurately be played. Then there are the anemic nazards which haven't the requisite nazardiness. Most krummhorns/cromornes hover somewhere betwixt the French and the German varieties, being neither the one nor the other. One can but conclude that XXth and XXIst century folk have a congenital aversion to colourful overtones, overtones which are the most important factors, timbre-wise, in making music, whether it be 'period' music or 'modern' music. This is why the Victorian instrument was so utterly and studiedly colourless, and why the 'English tub' is/was so 'tubby'.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Jackson, my thoughts on those "historic" instruments are probably a bit more complicated. I have seen fine instruments destroyed because some quite ordinary organist thought he needed an "authentic" period Gratenshrieker to play music from an earlier time. Some of the authentic organ reproductions are really horrid sounding instruments. I am more in line with the thinking of Marie-Claire Alain who, when told by an organist he couldn't play Bach on a particular instrument said, "Then play something else." She went on to say that you have to respect the instrument. One can play Bach, or works of any other composer, on a Skinner and make it beautiful and musical. One can also play any works on a badly designed and tonally finished reproduction and nothing will sound good.

    The issue with French Baroque instruments is that they are physically not built like American organs. Yes the voicing/scaling and such are different, but what is there and not there are radically different from what we have in most American churches. I can play that music on my small Schantz, but have to modify it considerably to make it work on that particular instrument.

    As to modern folks having aversions to overtones, who knows. What ended the construction of French Baroque instruments was the French Revolution. There was roughly a 50 year period in which no instruments were built. By the time the government changed and instruments were being built again, music had moved on. It always does. The Baroque period ended and another began. Likewise, the instruments changed to accommodate the new music.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    So...no one wants to extol the work of fine American Composers like Richard Clark, Kevin Allen and more? If we live in the past, is there a future?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Don't forget Gregory Hamilton. I am playing some of his works and find them to be good music. Kudos to those mentioned above, as well.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    Speaking of Kevin Allen's organ music, is any of it available anywhere? Either sheet music or recording? I've never been able to find it.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Google: "Kevin Allen" Organ Music
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    Forgive me if I'm being dense, Frogman, but I'm not finding anything useful that way. Nothing from CC Watershed's emporium is his organ music, for example.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    All the references listed (including the CCW post)_ mention his organ music and it should possible to isolate some titles and search by them further to track down a publisher. Let me have a go at one and see.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    Awesome--you're the best!
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Was the best. Until I totally failed to find any place that the 12 Gregorian Preludes (for organ) by Kevin Allen could be purchased.

    This brings up an issue that I have brought up before - a central sales store for music that people on this list have for sale. There's been little interest, which I understand. It is hard to keep enthusiasm going for a project that will provide little income.

    It would take someone with a leaning towards obsessive compulsion - which is almost a required personality trait for a musician - and a desire to keep music out there for people to buy, even if they are not buying it!

  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Maybe this leads to a score.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    https://youtu.be/crQ8YEUkUjg

    https://youtu.be/Gt2zubHcER4

    (wait for it)
Add a Comment