de Victoria O Magnum Mysterium
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,100
    in recent years' archives I remember several posts about choirs that sang this at Christmas, and received, er, spontaneous reinforcements from the pews, in soprano or tenor parts...

    our little choir has grown to the point where we *could* sing it, but I was pretty put off by the anecdotes. What think you about this O Magnum Mysterium?

    a) wonderful, a must do!
    b) oh, THAT old thing!
    c) other (specify)\

    thank you!
  • CGM
    Posts: 699
    It's a beautiful piece, and while I've programmed Christmas with and without it, when it isn't there, I always miss it. The last time I used it, at a new church (for me) where there hadn't been a tradition of polyphony & chant, we sang it from the choir loft on Christmas Day during communion, and the congregation applauded when we were done (which we were not expecting). Safe to say that the beauty of the piece won over the people...
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  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    1st piece I programmed for my high school concert choir, worth it. If you can't bring this off, forget Poulenc, Lauridsen, LaRocca......
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  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    This marvelous motet began to be popular as far back as the sixties. Oddly, it has yet to seem (at least to me) 'old hat'. It is always fresh. As far as people in the pews joining in: well, this may seem that they are, at this moment, usurping the choir's role, and, I should think that 'they' would think better of it. On the 'other hand' - it's nice to know that some of them know it well and are really 'tuned in' to and identify with what the choir are doing.
    The Victoria isn't a must, but shouldn't be thought of as 'over done' and deserving a rest. If one doesn't wish to do Victoria's there are other O magnums to be considered, such as by Byrd, Gombert, Palestrina, Gabrieli, Lauridsen, Poulenc, et al.
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  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Jackson,

    Imagine a situation in which it is possible to be "over done and deserving a rest." What would that situation look like? (Feel free to overdraw the characters, to make it absurdly clear.)
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  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    Chris -
    I'm always sensitive to the ODADAR syndrome to which you refer. The tenor of my remark was that, astonishingly, Victoria's O magnum seems to be immune to it - at least to my ears. And, as long as there are Catholic choirs that yearn for the day on which they can 'pull it off' I shall egg them on.
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  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    We have sung it the last three years. It is wonderful and I think a "must do" when you have a choir who can sing it well. But, for most volunteer choirs in Catholic churches, I think the Victoria is a real challenge.

    We began learning it in September and it wasn't ready until the following year. Even then, it was shaky. Pitch is the never ending problem in my volunteer choir and the Victoria doesn't hide a thing.

    If you have talented section leads for every part and members who are humble, who listen carefully and are willing to rehearse on their own so that rehearsals are effective and inspiring... go for it!
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    For me, the even more wonderful Christmas motet is Byrd's Hodie Christus Natus Est.
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  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,100
    (travel is the never ending problem in our all volunteer choir!)

    I think we do a decent job with de Victoria's exquisite "Vere Languores", so I think we will work on this too... although if people keep traveling, we won't sing it this year.

    as for the volunteer singers in the pews - so be it. I figure this is one motet that most polyphonic choirs do learn, and (speaking for myself at least), in spite of age or changing fortunes you will always long to sing it again. Says a lot for the lasting beauty of the Church's musical treasury, doesn't it? How blessed we are to have a role in making it live!
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  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Jackson,

    Fair enough. Let me phrase the question in a more general sense. In any given season what is the largest number of times a choir should sing a piece before the singing of it becomes mundane, rather than exquisitely beautiful?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    "times" - would need to exclude: (1) rehearsals, and (2) offerings at different Masses on the same observance. What's mundane for a choir because of those repetitions is quite different than for those who are not experiencing them....
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  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Liam,

    Yes, you're quite correct. Singing the same music at 3 Masses on the same weekend, for my purposes, counts as singing it once. Singing it three weeks in a row, at all three Masses, counts as repeating the music 3 times, not 9.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I wonder if the thread is going tangential, but doing the same anthem/motet for weeks in a row seems a bit like "American Bandstand."
    I much prefer the "drop the needle exam" approach: use the text/musical beauty of a work as a prompt to an "Aha!" moment for the PIPs, one that may surprise, but definitely affirms the day's Propers. See "Esquerra, Aristotle, Polyphonic Propers."
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  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Larocca also has an English setting of the Midnight Communion: https://illuminarepublications.com/choral-propers-from-frank-la-rocca/
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  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    Chris -
    To answer your 'rephrase'...
    In a word, once.
    'Singing a piece' or 'performing a piece' meaning public or liturgical offering at the same place or for the same people.
    Rehearsal doesn't count.
    We have to rehearse things.
    Singing it for different masses or different people also gets a pass.

    Now, of course, if we sing a piece out caroling, then for the old folks home, then for lessons and carols, then for three different masses, it may well become tiring to us, but not to those listeners who've heard it only once.

    On the other hand, depending on the quality of the piece, such repetition may amount to added familiarity, perfection, and, therefore, pleasure - depending on the quality of the piece.
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  • KyleM18
    Posts: 150
    @matthewj Do you get a page not found error after you click on any of the choices? Im getting one.
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  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    depending on the quality of the piece,

    and the quality of the performance.
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    I’ve always been surprised at how tricky the cross-relations can be. Variances among different editions mean that no one can just step in and sing it.

    If you’re looking for something easier and still very beautiful, I suggest the “Verbum caro” of de Rivulo.

    (I still need to upload my edition, which corrects some typos from the Kickton score on CPDL.)
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    There is also the “O magnum” of Stadlmayr. It’s not as sublime as the Victoria, of course, but it has its own “quiet stillness” that makes it worth singing. It also includes the verse, unlike Victoria.
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  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    @MJO: You mean the 1560s, right?
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