• I am asking my first question on this site. Hope it is okay to ask here.

    I am an older man (75 years old) and I have an okay bakground in piano and choir singing. I have been playing the organ for my country church for about 6 years and I played the piano for a number of years before that. I switched to the organ because I think it helps lead singers better and we have a nice pipe organ in our little church that no one else was playing.

    I have had a few organ lessons but I pretty much taught myself. I watch videos of other organists and try to imitate things that I see and hear that I can tell are good.

    I would really like to play Bach or some German composers for postludes after mass. Where should I start? I really like counterpoint like Bach uses and things that sound like that, but I am not the best organist in the world. What pieces could I use that would sound good and use counterpoint but not be completely out of the question for someone with my skill? Is there an order that would be good for me to learn some Bach pieces for organ?

    Thank you for reading and for answering my questions.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • Pachelbel: Ricercare in C minor [I like this piece; it is in three sections]

    Pachelbel: Magnificat Fugue VII:7 [this is an interesting chromatic one]

    Bach: Little Prelude and Fugue in G major

    Bach: Little Prelude and Fugue in A minor [these two are the ones I tend towards, of the set]

    How do these look?
    Thanked by 1roger1941
  • John Stanley's voluntaries are quite versatile for preludes or postludes or processionals. Especially the ones (which means most of them) which have 'trumpet tune' sections. The voluntaries of Wllm Boyce are equally fine, as are those of some others of that period.

    Other similar literature would work as well.

    Jonathan's mention of the 'Little Preludes and Fugues' by 'Bach' is good advice.

    Look into the works of Couperin, de Grigny, LeBegue, Balbastre, and other Frenchmen of the baroque era. Numerous 'movements' from their organ masses and magnificats would be quite nice for your purposes.

    Langlais' 'Organ Book' contains ten pieces of moderate difficulty, some of which might be useful to you. Ditto his Huit pieces modales.

    There are a plethora of canzonas from the late renaissance or early baroque era which would make good ludes. Frescobaldi would be a prime 'suspect', but there are many others.

    Search the organ chorale repertory. Many of these make very fine ludes. Bach's Orgelbuchlein would be a good place to start - but don't stop there.

    The mid-twentieth century German, Hermann Schroeder wrote quite a number of short, easy to moderately difficult pieces that would be ideal for just such purposes as yours. Most of them should be well within your capabilities. Some are very festive.

    Look into Oxford's 'manuals only' collections. Theses would offer much that you might delight in. Other publishers offer similar collections.

    There are movements here and there from Tournemire's L'orgue mystique that are not difficult and may be suitable.

    _________________________________________

    Incidentally -
    Prelude, Postlude.
    We use these words all the time on the western edge of the pond, where they are preferred to the less prosaic 'voluntary'. Each refers to, one might say, 'something that is played', namely, played before or played after. -Lude derives from the Latin ludus, which means 'play', and which comes into English as the adjective 'ludic', meaning playful. Hence, pre-lude, or post-lude, or (tee-hee) perhaps a mid-lude - which would be a voluntary played at the offertory.
    Thanked by 2roger1941 GerardH
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    dig into the ten volumes of the liber organi on imslp.org

    I love this collection

    http://imslp.org/wiki/Liber_organi_

    cannot get link to work from iphone
    Thanked by 1roger1941
  • Johannes Peyer, a near contemporary of Bach. Two volumes I have of his stuff, manuals only.

    Thanked by 1roger1941
  • MarkS
    Posts: 282
    To narrow down the query—pedals: some or none? JonathanKK's Pachelbel suggestions, and most of Mr. Osborn's, are manuals–only; the Little Preludes and Fugues (turns out, probably not by Bach) require some basic pedaling.

    I second the Stanley and Boyce recommendations—lovely Baroque music for manuals only, but sounding more Handel than Bach (Handel, Boyce, and Stanley all had London church jobs during the same period and enjoyed visiting and listening to each other's music.)

    Another suggestion: many of the Bach WTC preludes and fugues can be effectively played on the organ (using pedals or not), and it is perfectly legitimate to do so! (Some, however, seem rather more obviously written with clavichord/harpsichord in mind.)


    Thanked by 1roger1941
  • JonLaird
    Posts: 245
    I have lately been doing some research on Italian 16th-century organ repertoire and came across some things that might be a good start for you.

    Girolamo Cavazzoni
    -the best place to start is with his three organ Masses
    -then try ricercari, canzoni, magnificats, hymns

    Not a postlude, but this pastorale by Frescobaldi makes a lovely prelude. [edit: use the second edition listed, which is more recent and easier to read]

    Giovanni Battista Fasolo
    -a boatload of liturgically practical works; on the simpler side would be the three organ Masses. Some of the hymns, ricercari, & fugues would make good postludes. Almost everything you see on his IMSLP composer page are organ works.


    I'm sorry I can't offer German suggestions at the moment. I'll be moving on to that within the next few weeks so if you stick around I might be able to give you something.
    Thanked by 1roger1941
  • Back to our friend Pachelbel -
    Don't sell him short.
    There is much more to him than that 'canon', which is actually a passacaglia (and it isn't an organ piece!), and the magnificat versets.
    Look into his toccatas, many of which are quite suitable in your situation. Some are rather treacherous little pieces, some are more tame, but all will well repay any trouble it takes to learn them. Some have very easy pedal parts - meaning just lengthy pedal points - which add an element of gravitas.
    In the same toccata territory, there are many baroque examples which are quite easy (relatively speaking), such as those of Matthias Weckman, Georg Bohm, and a slew of others.
    Some of the free works of J.G. Walther would also be within your grasp.
  • I second MJO. Pachelbel has some great chorale preludes as well as Magnificats for solo organ and they make great prelude/postlude material.
  • Hello again. To answer MarkS, I can do some pedaling, and I always pedal on the hymns.

    Thank you to everyone for your suggestions. This will definitely help me and give me a good place to start. Other that the Orgelbuchlein and little preludes and fugues, would there be other Bach things I should look at?

    I also have a question for Francis about that collection he recommended. Do you have any songs in there that you particularly like to use? It's a lot of music. When I looked at it, I thought the music didn't really go anywhere or that it was a lot of notes but not a lot of development, if that is the right word. Maybe I just didn't look in the right place.
  • You ask about other Bach -
    without giving a long list right now, it does occur to me that you might really enjoy his pastorale (BWV 590). Actually, this would seem more preludish or offertory or communionish than postludish, but it is a nice piece that you should get much use from. It has four distinct sections (movements, actually) which could be used independently. Strictly speaking, the pastorale is Christmas music, but I don't think that one needs to feel bound by that: emotionally, there are numerous times when it could be fitting. The first section has a pedal point whilst the rest are manualiter.
    A pretty easy (and relatively short!) prelude and fugue that comes to mind is the e-minor (BWV 533) sometimes dubbed (who knows why!) 'the cathedral'. There are others which are relatively medium in difficulty.
  • Could I ask another question? What should I learn from the Orgelbuchlein first? I haven't seen the music yet, but I would guess that some songs in it are more challenging than others, and I would like a recommendation from someone more experienced, if that isn't too much trouble.
  • It might be helpful from here on if you shared with us the details of your organ -
    number of manuals, specifications, anything else of interest... age, builder, location.
    You did say that it was 'nice', and you did refer to 'our little church', so, is it safe to assume that your organ is not too big?
  • Now this information I do know! It is a Moller, and I remember when it was installed. Must have been in the middle 1950s because I was in high school. I think they said way back then that it was 17 ranks, but I don't really know what that means. I do have a good memoty for most of the stops, so I am pretty sure that what I am going to type is right. I might have a couple of things wrong or mixed up.

    2 keyboards and pedals.

    Great
    8 Principal
    8 Bourdon
    8 Genshorn
    4 Octave
    Mixture

    Swell
    16 Quint
    8 Flute
    8 Salicion String
    8 Vox Celeste
    4 Spitzprinccipal
    4 Flute
    2 Flute
    Plain Jeu
    8 Trumpet
    4 Clarion (Is this another trumpet?)

    Pedal
    two sets of 16, 8, and 4. One set is basically loud, and the other set is basically soft.
  • Another really easy piece that you would enjoy would be Sweelinck's echo fantasia. This has a very easy left hand chordal support with right hand having continuous melody going from a louder to a softer sound in echo fashion. This would make a nice prelude, offertory, or communion on some occasions, but wouldn't really be postlude fare.

    Now to the Orgelbuchlein -
    these are some of the easiest pieces:

    No.:
    5. Puer natus in Bethlehem
    9. Vom Himmel kam der Engel Schaar (this has running semi-quavers throughout but is best taken at a relatively moderate tempo. You might have fun learning this.
    12. Jesu, meine Freude - probably somewhat challenging for you but not too difficult.
    19. Herr Gott, nun schleuss den Himmel auf - doesn't go very fast, so don't be frightened of the continuum of semi-quavers. You may have fun with the relentless but not terribly difficult pedal part.
    20. O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig - taken at a very modest tempo, rhythmically interesting, and exhibits canon betwixt bass and alto
    21. Christe, du Lamm Gottes - this one is brief and definitely easy. Not too fast.
    27. Christ lag in Todesbanden - a staple for organ students, not easy, but not too difficult if you really wish to tackle it.
    28. Jesus Christus, unser Heiland - not difficult, some coordination challenges
    40. Ich ruf' zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ - some coordination challenges with a continuous obbligato in the alto against steady quavers in the pedal. You may enjoy tackling this staple of organ students.
    42. Wenn wir in Hochsten Nothen Sein - if you feel up to the intricacies of an highly ornamented melody against a not too challenging 'accompaniment' you might enjoy learning this lovely but rhythmically challenging piece - really nice for funerals and some Lenten days.

    There you have it. Some of my colleagues may wonder why I put some of these on your list, or why I didn't put others on it. Not knowing exactly what you are capable of I opted to give you ample credit. Considering your obvious desire to grow you might give serious consideration to taking lessons from a nearby university-recommended organist. An Episcopalian would be the most likely help-mate in this regard.

    Of course, your original question referenced postludes. Some of these would be appropriate as such, whilst others would be more fitting as preludes, offertories, or communions. Some also work well (get the Riemenschneider edition and check the chorale texts!) as wedding or funeral voluntaries.

  • Reval
    Posts: 186
    a mid-lude - which would be a voluntary played at the offertory.

    Mid-lude= interlude? : )
  • 8 Trumpet
    4 Clarion (Is this another trumpet?)
    Yes those are trumpets an octave higher than the 8.
  • Since I have a penchant for the French style, I can't stand it when an organ doesn't have a Clarion. I was fortunate that the organ I learned on had a very good Trompette and Clarion in the swell. Suffice to say, I've learned to fake a Grand Jeu.
  • MarkS
    Posts: 282
    To supplement Mr. Osborn's Bach suggestions:

    Bach's Clavier-Übung III (sometimes referred to as the 'German Organ Mass') contains some of Bach's most challenging chorale preludes, but scattered throughout are settings of the same chorales for manuals-only. These are not too difficult and several make excellent postludes. While you are making your way through the Orgelbüchlein (which, charmingly, means 'little organ book'), you might want to take a look at these:

    BWV 674 Kyrie, Gott heiliger Geist
    BWV 677 Fughetta super: Allien gott in der Höh' sei Ehr'
    BWV 679 Fughetta super: Diess sind die heil'gen zehn Gebot'
    BWV 685 Christ, unser Herr, zum Jordan kam
    BWV 689 Fuga super: Jesus Christ, unser heiland

    The four 'Duetto's which follow the chorale preludes are also charming (written, I believe, to be played during Communion); Duetto III is my favorite, but Duetto IV (BWV 805) is one that could be played as a postlude with a bigger registration. Manuals-only pieces are totally legitimate!

    Looks like you have a nice little organ to play! 'Ranks' refer to the individual sets of pipes that make up the organ. Each 'stop' on the organ activates a particular set of pipes, or rank. Mixtures are made up of multiple ranks—your swell mixture probably is made up of two ranks, and the Great mixture probably three. What this means for your organ, which has 21 'stops' but only 17 ranks, is that multiple 'stops' on the organ activate the same ranks—so, for instance, the Swell Clarion may well be the Trumpet rank at 4' (an octave higher—reed ranks being expensive), and the pedal 16', 8', and 4' stops probably draw on the same rank at different octaves. It's fun to figure out—go stop by stop, and compare, for instance, a note on the trumpet with the same note an octave lower on the Clarion.

    Good luck with your Bach! And, as mentioned above, don't neglect Pachelbel.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Thank you very much for this further information. I will have a lot to occupy my time. Are there particular Pachelbel toccatas that would be good for me? I appreciate the wisdom of those who know more than I do.
  • Are there particular...

    Actually, they are all pretty similar in structure and difficulty.
    They typically consist of running parallel sixths and thirds and such, all in semi-quavers.
    It can be challenging keeping track of changing directions (upward or downward) and of when the rapid parallel motion involves a change of interval.
    Don't be frightened, though, these are wonderful pieces, not too lengthy, and should be very impressive on your little organ.
    Just choose several that appeal to you and make friends with them.
    I'm rather fond of the one in e-minor.

    Also, the tempos can vary.
    They may go 'like the wind', or may be taken at a tempo that suits your ability - all depending on how fast your fingers can go, and how fast you can think!
    (The really important thing is 'flow', a continuum of line.)
    Too, some of them present opportunities to change manuals - though you want to be careful that doing so compliments rather than savages the architectural integrity of the piece.
    Thanked by 2MarkS CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    also look up pachelbels fugues on the Magnificat. They are simply wonderful and similar to Bach.
    Thanked by 1rich_enough
  • Roger - I would beware the Orgelbuchlein. It is often a go-to because of the shortness of the settings, but short does not necessarily mean "easy". Page-for-page, the orgelbuchlein settings are often Bach at his most contrapuntally dense and complex. And unlike a fugue or choral motet, all voices play all the time. That translates to constant coordination challenges, and a great deal of learning time to master a very short piece.
  • MarkS
    Posts: 282
    On the other hand, precisely because they are short, the Örgelbuchlein settings have served as an introduction to the Bach chorale prelude rep. for generations of organ students. And they are not of uniform difficulty—Mr. Osborn has helpfully listed some of the less difficult ones (none are truly 'easy' to perform well, as is true of all good music!).

    Bach designed many of his 'collections' (finished or unfinished during his lifetime) for didactic purposes. The Örgelbuchlein was intended as a demonstration of the many ways in which a chorale tune could be treated, and for that reason it is a perfect introduction to that rep. Bach 'at his most contrapuntally dense and complex' (I might challenge this, but letting it stand) is much easier to absorb in 16–32 measure units, and they are wonderful pieces that are very helpful in preparing musicians for the bigger pieces to follow.

    A digression on 'difficult' versus 'easy': My students are trained to think that there are not 'difficult' and 'easy' works, but only that there are works that require more careful, slow practice. I think it's a much more helpful way of viewing the situation. and, truly, as my students can tell you, there is no piece that is so 'hard' that it cannot be practiced accurately (if practiced slowly enough!).

    The chorale preludes, however, are not well known to music aficionados. When roger1941 referenced Bach polyphony, I wonder if he really had in mind the sort of instrumental Bach that many music lovers would know- Brandenburg concertos, Goldberg variations, Italian concerto, French and English suites etc.. In which case, I would again suggest some of the preludes and fugues of the Well Tempered Clavier as a starting point. And, as francis and Mr. Osborn suggest, Pachelbel! One of my favorite toccatas is the c minor, which works both with a big 'plenum' (postlude) registration but is also lovely with a smaller flute chorus registration, and features pedal points—easy (=less practice time) and effective!

  • I give high marks to Mark's observations just above (and think much of his paedagogical thrust).

    Having done so I will also agree fully with Jared that the Orgelbuchlein offers some of the great Sebastian's most challenging and 'contrapuntally dense' organ chorales.

    There are pedaliter settings in the Clavier-Ubung, 'the Eighteen', the Schubler, and others that are less difficult and offer fewer technical challenges than quite a few items in the Orgelbuchlein.

    'Little Book' that it is, it isn't, but for some few pieces, easy for average XXIst century beginners - maybe XVIIIth century ones, who literally ate, drank, and breathed that musical culture. The really good ones could even improvise that likes of what it takes many today months to learn. Such was their musical world.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    Charles Vincent Postludes or Voluntaries tend to be easy to transfer from piano to organ.
    I'd also take a look at Handel Voluntaries.

    As for getting organ repertoire in general the CHTrevor books are a fantastic learning resource.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn