• New appointments
    *sigh* Marini.....
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,182
    He'll be 75 in January.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    This is why we can't have nice things.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,003
    The 75 would be relevant if he had a non-titular see, but not so much in this context....

    Here's the complete list (apparently replacing all the incumbent consultors, including Cdls Burke and Pell):

    Cdl Woelki, Cologne, Germany;
    Cdl Onaiyekan, Abuja, Nigeria;
    Cdl Parolin, Secretary of State;
    Cdl Lacroix, Québec, Canada;
    Cdl Ouédraogo, Ouagadougou, Burkina Faso;
    Cdl Dew, Wellington, New Zealand;
    Cdl Blázquez Pérez, Valladolid, Spain;
    Cdl Furtado, Santiago de Cabo Verde, Capo Verde;
    Cdl Ravasi, Pontifical Council for Culture; and
    Cdl Stella, Congregation for Clergy.
    Abp Jala, Shillong, India;
    Abp Sorrentino, Assisi‑Nocera Umbra‑Gualdo Tadino, Italy;
    Abp Hart, Melbourne, Australia;
    Abp Piero Marini, President of pontifical committee for Eucharistic congresses;
    Abp Aubertin, Tours, France;
    Abp Valles, Davao, Philippines; and
    Abp Voltolini Esti, Portoviejo, Ecuador.
    Bp Serratelli, Paterson, NJ, USA;
    Bp Maniago, Castellaneta, Italy;
    Bp Eidsvig, Oslo, Norway;
    Bp D’Annibale, Rio Gallegos, Argentina;
    Bp Cordeiro, Bragança‑Miranda, Portugal;
    Bp Morerod, Lausanne, Geneva and Fribourg, Switzerland;
    Bp Masi, auxiliary of Kinshasa, Congo;
    Bp Travas, Multan, Pakistan; and
    Bp Shin‑Ho, auxiliary of Daegu, Korea.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Notable names missing from this list:

    Archbishop Alexander Sample
    Bishop Athanasius Schneider
    Bishop Michael Barber, SJ of Oakland in California

  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    What's Marini like? Anyone else promising or disappointing?
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    Also, are there any lay consultants to the CDW that anyone's aware of?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,182
    Bp. Serratelli is sensible; Bp. Morerod has good relations with the SSPX in his diocese; if I remember right, Cdl. Ravasi is noted for goofy cultural projects.
  • Piero Marini (not the Holy Father's MC) is a disciple of Abp Bugnini.

    Thanked by 1Vilyanor
  • cmb
    Posts: 85
    Cardinal Sarah is still the prefect. Praise God.
  • Do the consultors have legislative, or merely advisory capacity?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,182
    CDW has delegated authority (legislative and administrative) from the Pope in liturgical matters. Anything new wouldn't be done without the prefect obtaining the Pope's approval; however, some matters (e.g., approval of vernacular translations) don't need to pass across the Pope's desk.
  • Bill,
    You mistook my question. I mean the following: Since Cardinal Sarah is the head of the Congregation, why does it matter who his consultors are?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,003
    In Rome, prefects are not popes of their congregations.... it's a matter of the culture.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    The consultors can stifle him: go behind his back to the Pope, make up things that the Pope "said" or "wants", etc. Don't forget that P. Marini is a disciple of Bugnini -- who took the art of subterfuge to new heights when running the Consillium to create the Novus Ordo. On the whole, I'd say this is very BAD news.
    Thanked by 2Ben CCooze
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Since Cardinal Sarah is the head of the Congregation, why does it matter who his consultors are?

    Because they're loading the office with liberals, making it much harder for +Sarah to lead in a faithful manner.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,182
    It would be informative to see the statutes that regulate the Congregation's decision-making. They are distinct from the Code of Canon Law, which is easy to find on-line or in book form. One would want to know how the Congregation makes decisions if there is not unanimity among the members: is a vote decisive, or is it simply consultative? Is a majority or supermajority, or a stronger show of consensus required?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    One thing we can guess, its workings will be byzantine--that is to say, Roman.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,003
    Roman culture operates very differently from the typical expectations of many Anglo-North Americans. Easist example: what's not said is often more important than what is said. (Also terrible for people with simpler or more literal sense of social or linguistic processing to grasp.)
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577

    Dear Guardian Angel, when I am asleep you have my permission
    to moonlight part time at CDWDS and help Cdl Sarah. Amen.
  • Eft, amen and amen!!
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Seems to me that all those thorns in Cdl Sarah's side must mean he's doing a good thing?
    Thanked by 2Vilyanor francis
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,955
    Seems to me that all those thorns in Cdl Sarah's side must mean he's doing a good thing?

    He is truly a remarkable man!
    Thanked by 2Vilyanor Ben
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,391
    Some are using the term "consultor" incorrectly. The CDWDS has both members (bishops) and consultors (usually not bishops). The recent announcement was about members of the dicastery.

    Plenary meetings of the CDWDS with both members and consultors present are almost non-existent. Plenary meetings of just the members are also rare. Most of the decision-making of the CDWDS occurs in ordinary meetings of those members who happen to live in Rome or near it. The agenda for those meetings include many more questions about sacramental validity (most often, the validity of specific marriages and ordinations) than liturgical issues.

    I imagine that the recent instruction dealing with cremation was considered at a plenary meeting of the CDWDS members, but perhaps it was not, and the document is entirely the work product of the CDWDS staff. I very much doubt that Bishop Serratelli's frequent flyer mileage will see a spike because of his membership in the CDWDS.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Fr. Krisman,

    This structure seems similar to that of the BCL/CDW at the Conference. Or is it much different?
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,391

    Similar, but with several differences. During my 12 years at the then-BCL Secretariat, there were always 7 voting members of the committee. There were also usually 6 non-bishop consultants, and perhaps a few bishop consultants who served as chairmen of the committee's subcommittees. Technically the consultants did not vote on agenda items at committee meeting at which they were present. But they shared in the discussions and could often sway the voting members in the decisions they made.

    The annual June meeting of the committee also included consultants. But during the November annual meeting of the then-NCCB, there would also be a meeting of the members and the bishop-consultants - usually to address actions items of the committee being considered by the full NCCB. And if there were liturgical action items subject to amendment being voted on by the NCCB, there might also be late-night session(s) of the committee to work through any such amendments
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    "...It has been 9 years since SP went into force. It is time for us to take off the training wheels and ride the damn bike!

    Do not be flustered. Do not be paralyzed with anxiety. Do not run in circles, panting and tearing at your clothing. Pontiffs come and pontiffs go. You, on the other hand, are called to influence your corner of the world according to your vocations, God’s plan for you. So, form alliances, create a solid group with a vision and goal, discern your tactics to carry out your strategy. Examine your consciences. GO TO CONFESSION! Get to work. Don’t sit around in your wilted flower bed and wring your hands, waiting for priests to do everything for you. Not. Gonna. Happen. YOU have to make things happen."
  • Don’t sit around in your wilted flower bed and wring your hands, waiting for priests to do everything for you. Not. Gonna. Happen.

    No, but some of them will certainly get in your way and make your life hell.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I know Fr. Z means well and is apparently trying to rally the troops, but somehow his lectures have a deflating effect and leave me thinking he's placing most of the blame for the current impasse regarding SP and UE upon the laity.

    I'm all for having a battle plan and working hard and forming alliances, but my experience time and again over many decades is that otherwise excellent lay initiatives do not succeed without active clerical leadership.

    Perhaps it's an effect from preconciliar times, perhaps from the old clericalist mentality that lay people should be seen and not heard: Pay, pray and obey, and there better not be one peep coming from the pews--- which did not improve after the Council since Catholic lay people have, for the most part, been conditioned by the postconciliar Church to be compliant and unaware, the equivalent of the low-information voter.

    All I'm saying is that it's kind of hard to go from being docile, silent sheeple to tactical commandos in the liturgical war just like that. Very few laypeople are prepared to do that in today's Church, and I'm not sure they should be expected to do so.
    Thanked by 1Vilyanor
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,039
    It's not so much that the current impasse is the fault of the laity (Fr. Z. spends plenty of time blaming clerics), it's just the we layfolk can do little about the clergy except wring our hands. It's lame to foist this all on the clergy when we haven't done all that we can. And the first priority is getting our own house in order ("Go to Confession!") if we want anything to have a chance at succeeding.

    otherwise excellent lay initiatives do not succeed without active clerical leadership.

    I've actually found the reverse to be the case. My parents started a school with no clerical input whatsoever, and three decades later it's still going strong. Ditto for many other schools I know about. By contrast a number of schools I've heard about with clerical involvement suffered either from a priest doing bad things, or from a priest meddling in the internal affairs of the school.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I don't mean to blame the clergy for the situation, but it's just that I don't see how lay people can get much done in the way of liturgical renewal without the leadership and direction of priests. It's just the way the Church is instituted. The laity and clergy are supposed to operate together in an hierarchical fashion and aren't complete without the other.

    In my favorite scene in A Bridge Too Far, Sir Edward Fox plays the part of a general outlining the objectives and rallying the tank commanders who in their turn go out and fire up their troops.

    Not much would have been accomplished if he had instead railed at the enlisted men and said, in effect, "Now, men, you know what has to be done. Stop whining and wringing your hands and expecting help from your officers. Not. Gonna. Happen."
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465

    Sir Edward Fox's stirring speech as Lt. Gen. Horrocks. Of course, the irony is that regardless of the extensive planning, intense collaboration and extraordinary efforts, the operation failed.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,709
    put no hope in man, only in God
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,225
    he's placing most of the blame for the current impasse regarding SP and UE upon the laity.