Omission of the Mystery of Faith in an OF Mass?
  • Theo
    Posts: 50
    Does the OF permit the omission of the Mystery of Faith? If a polyphonic Mass setting is used, is it possible to substitute the Mystery of Faith with the Benedictus?
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    Strictly speaking, I don't think so, although I've done it a few times.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    No.
    Benedictus is, actually, an acclamation - but not this one.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    No.
    Thanked by 3Casavant Organist Spriggo Chris Hebard
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM)
    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20030317_ordinamento-messale_en.html
    151. After the consecration when the priest has said, Mysterium fidei (Let us proclaim the mystery of faith), the people sing or say an acclamation using one of the prescribed formulas.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Perhaps someone should just compose a polyphonic "mortem Tuam."
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn Salieri Casavant Organist
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Or slightly amend an already composed setting of "Salvator mundi".
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    A polyphonic Mysterium makes no sense. By all means, write new polyphonic parts of the Ordinary, but for the MF just respond with a response from the Missal and move on.
    Thanked by 4CharlesW JL hilluminar PaxTecum
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    It's true. It doesn't take long.
    17-21.3 seconds, according to my phone's stopwatch, at the more "normal" extremes.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    A polyphonic Mysterium makes no sense.


    Neither does the MF itself.
    Thanked by 2StimsonInRehab CCooze
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    The Mystery of Faith is prescribed and no individual has the authority to change or delete it. I only use the "A" setting, because our priests believe it is a more accurate translation. During Lent, I use the Latin version.
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I only use the "A" setting, because our priests believe it is a more accurate translation.

    Do they know that "B" and "C" are equally accurate translations of different texts?

    121. Diende dicit:
    Mysterium Fidei
    Et populos prosequitur, acclamans:
    Morten tuam annuntiamus Domine, et tuam resurrectionem confitemur, donec venias.
    Vel:
    Quotiescumque manducamus panem hunc et calicem bibimus, mortem tuam annuntiamus, Domine, donec venias.
    Vel:
    Salvator mundi, salva nos, qui per crucem et resurrectionem tuam liberasti nos.

    From Missale Romanum, Edition Typica Tertia, 2002.
    http://media.musicasacra.com/books/latin_missal2002.pdf
    Thanked by 2Paul F. Ford CHGiffen
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I also only use A, but for different reasons.

    B from the Missal requires the congregation to jump down a fourth from the most commonly used intonation to begin their response.

    C from the Missal requires a minor third jump on their first syllable after coming in.

    A from the Missal is the most easily learned congregational response - first two notes unison and then a step down - and I personally see no need to change it about, switch seasonally, etc.
    Thanked by 1doneill
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    For me the fact that there is a choice of responses to a single prompt is contrary to the principles of liturgical structure, neither missal nor GIRM give any clue as to how the congregation should be guided in their individual choice. The continuance of this absurdity is the most depressing feature of reform.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,981
    Of course "B" and "C" are different texts, which all of us know. We use "A" because it is a translation of "mortem tuam." That is the only Latin version we use, also, during the seasons of the year when we use Latin. For whatever reason, "A" is the only Latin version in our hymnal.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I didn't intend to rankle you (too much), Charles. From you post it seemed like your clergy had the impression that "B" and "C" were some kind of dynamic equivalence translation of Mortem tuam, which, of course, they are not. I included the Latin texts for "B" and "C", mainly so that people would see the original, which is hard to come by sometimes, since the only Latin text that has ever been set is "A".

    Personally, I think that the whole Mystery of Faith thing was one of the more ahistorical parts of the reform. There were things like it in other Rites (Cistercian, Carmelite, Neo-Gallican, etc.), but it was always very clear what was used for what. It wouldn't have been hard to simply adopt what was the most common: O salutaris hostia (v. 1 only) for most of the year, Ave verum corpus for feasts of the BVM (and, I think, in some uses, Advent and Christmas), and Pie Jesu for requiems. But they had to reinvent the wheel. (Like they did with so many other aspects of the "reform".)
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • johnmann
    Posts: 175
    Option A is the best translation of the Eastern post-narrative acclamation. Anybody know the origins of B and C?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    The other texts also replaced the Benedictus, no?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    The Benedictus wasn't replaced - it was merged with the Sanctus.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Spriggo
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    @johnmann
    B: 1 Corinthians 11:26
    C: Antiphon at Holy Unction and for the Exaltation of the Holy Cross (saith Wikipedia).
    Added
    LU 1962 has it (C) to accompany the procession with the Blessed Sacrament on Good Friday. Using a text that has two settings by Tallis, both a couple of minutes long.
    Thanked by 2johnmann eft94530
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    What did Fauré use, then? And elsewhere on this forum it has been explained that in the Gallican use they did indeed drop the Benedictus.
  • johnmann
    Posts: 175
    Another question. Was B or C used as a Eucharistic acclamation in any Rite at any point in history?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    I assume the source of (A) is in these Maronite acclamations:

    From the Anaphora of St John (and the Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles):

    O Lord, we remember your death,
    we witness to your resurrection,
    we await your second coming,
    we implore your compassion,
    and we ask for the forgiveness of our sins.
    May your mercy come upon us all.


    From the Anaphora of St Sixtus:

    O God, we remember your death,
    we witness that you rose from among the dead,
    we await your return.
    May your mercy come upon us all.

    Thanked by 4M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen hilluminar eft94530
  • doneill
    Posts: 207
    Like Matthew, I consistently use A, and see no reason to switch it seasonally. For one thing, the congregation has no idea which one it is, until after it starts, so consistency is just more hospitable to them.
    Thanked by 4CCooze Adam Wood eft94530 rich_enough
  • PaxTecum
    Posts: 314
    I, too, use A from the ICEL chants.

    I have been known to use C during an Italian Mass (Tu ci hai redenti con la tua croce e risurrezione) as it is the only one with a decent enough musical setting in the Italian hymnal that this particular church has. I suppose "mortem tuam" would also be a good choice, since it's pretty easy for Italians to adapt to Latin. They don't complain as much as the whiny Americans do.
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,023
    For me the fact that there is a choice of responses to a single prompt is contrary to the principles of liturgical structure, neither missal nor GIRM give any clue as to how the congregation should be guided in their individual choice. The continuance of this absurdity is the most depressing feature of reform.


    [purple] This might be solved a la Byzantine Vespers:

    Priest (chanting): "Mysterium Fidei..." (holds note as Precentor intones)

    Precentor (recto): "The Acclamation in the 4th Tone: Mortem tuam annuntiamus Domine, et tuam resurrectionem confitemur donec venias." (Priest releases)

    Choir/Assembly (chanting): Mortem tuam annuntiamus..." [/purple]

    I suppose most parishes get around this because of the variety of organ introductions to figured settings, or by selecting different acclamations for use with different Ordinaries.
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    It has been enlightening for me to have more exposure to Orthodox liturgy over the past few years. I have realized that what many of the Consilium reformers had in mind was the Orthodox model, which has a series of congregational acclamations at various points throughout the Canon.

    To their minds this, I think, was “better” because it involves the people physically doing/saying stuff.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Is anywhere in GIRM that we cannot say it quietly while the choir is singing? Aren't the rubrics flexible enough to accommodate many variants that still respect Church's traditions and local practices that keep the dignity of the liturgy?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
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