Gloria Intonation for Choral Masses
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    By convention, the Gloria intonation from Mass IV is often used with choral Masses. Does anybody know why? I've wondered about this for a long time.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,378
    Interesting. In practice, Mass VIII is frequently used, sometimes IX on the feasts of the Virgin, and always I on Easter and at its vigil (in the TLM anyways and perhaps ideally: the rubrics do call for Mass I but…clergy.).
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    While some of these seem to be more commonly used in these situations than others, some of them fit their role better than others. Choosing one that compliments the key or mode would seem to be the smart thing to do. I've often heard this one or that one used which made no sense with the music that followed. In the case of masses from the polyphonic era, the correct Gloria is often indicated.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,378
    Musically, I think MJO is correct. It seems obvious when it doesn’t quite fit. I know a priest who always intones Mass VIII and Credo III no matter what follows, even a different setting of the chanted Ordinary. It probably has to do with ease and, yes, a degree of laziness that only one incipit (or an easier one vs a harder one which is a better fit) is used. That being said, it does make me sad that instead of using the full Gregorian Mass, we only get the incipit of some of the lesser–known Masses during liturgies which otherwise use polyphony.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Thankfully the "Lord have mercy" from the Jernberg St. Philip ends (in melody) on Bb. Perfect 4321 down to tonic F for the Glory.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I know of a number of common practices with choral glorias:

    • Score providing the proper intonation
    • Gloria VIII being used for any choral gloria (this often is based on the priest's limited ability)
    • The gloria proper to the feast being intoned, regardless of the musical form of what follows (I for easter, IX for BVM, XI for post pentecost etc)
    • Choir director picks a gloria which will both match the key of the gloria being sung, and ideally will also be in a reasonable range for the priest without needing to change keys before et in terra
    Thanked by 2madorganist Casavant Organist
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,378
    One advantage of the limited Gregorian repertoire in a given congregation is that if you don’t use VIII, you avoid an onslaught of people singing. We had this happen not with the Gloria but with Victoria’s Missa pro defunctis à 4 and the Agnus Dei using Mass XVIII. I was close to whalloping a few people who obviously didn’t read the printed order of service. At that Mass, were Mass VIII to be intoned, the same would happen.
    Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,824
    an onslaught of people singing
    We had this problem with Hassler's Dixit Maria. I thought people would be out of the habit for Advent, but Dec. 8 is too early I guess;-) Vincent Carpentier's edition uses mass IV. I could see using IX though, or the mode 3 XIV.
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    If the congregation were to be accustomed to alternate with the choir on the Gloria, such that the choir took "Et in terra...", the problem of them coming in with chant rather than polyphony would be avoided automatically.
    Thanked by 3madorganist CHGiffen Ben
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    The custom of using IV as the standard Gloria intonation probably comes the the fact that it is one of only four Gloria intonations in the entire Medicean Graduale Romanum. They are the ones we would consider in the new books to be for Mass IV (the most common), Mass IX (the second most common), Mass XI (used three times), and Mass XV (used once). One of the Glorias to use the "Mass IV incipit is what corresponds to our "Mass VIII" Gloria.
    Thanked by 2madorganist Jeffrey Quick
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,103
    the recording I have of Victoria's Missa O Quam Gloriosum has the intonation of the Gloria as from Mass I - which worked fine for us, as we sang that Mass on Easter Sunday.
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    Thank you, Salieri! This explanation makes perfect sense. I checked the 1871 Ratisbon Gradual and noticed the same thing there.
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