Not online: Chant books (and others) missing from our resource websites
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 490
    Given that old chant books are generally out of copyright, many of them are now available online.

    However, there are still plenty of books out there which are inaccessible except in hard-copy, and the purpose of this discussion is to bring these more into the public view so that perhaps something can be done about getting them scanned and put up somewhere.

    Vale in Domino,
    Jonathan
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    I had my Graduale Simplex scanned at Jeffrey Tucker's request, and the CMAA covered the cost, all I had to do was ship it. I got it back with the binding cut off, and put it in a binder for my own use.

    As I understand it, a large portion of the CMAA is volunteer, so perhaps you can be that volunteer which provides a few books for the CMAA online library!

    I'm not sure if the budget is still there to scan books, but if people have books in their libraries they are willing to sacrifice, it's worth talking to someone about it!
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,646
    The status of the Simplex is kind of up in the air, but I would love to see a better scan or fully digital version available. Sorry MJO.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,646
    I think the real problem with the Simplex is that the whole thing needs to be re-typeset in a much more clear way and provided to the world as a PDF. Such a venture would be a great service to the world.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 490
    Antiphonale Romanum (1949)

    This is probably the most recent version of the Antiphonale Romanum used for singing the traditional office, and is important on account of the fact that it is marked with Solesmes rhythmic signs.

    It also has a large supplement in the back of the book giving chants for benediction, with some interesting selections that I don't recall having seen elsewhere.
    Thanked by 3Olivier CHGiffen igneus
  • OlivierOlivier
    Posts: 55
    JonathanKK beat me to it: yes, AR49 please!
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 490
    Breviarium Romanum (1962)

    This is a case where we have just about everything except the real deal.

    Examples:

    Breviarium Romanum (1942 - an earlier edition)

    Breviarium Romanum (someone's project, and not complete, either)

    Nova & Vetera (expensive hard-copy)

    Baronius (expensive hard-copy)


    My understanding is that, at the time, there was never published an edition with the traditional Gallican psalter, as the Pian psalter was expected to catch on. Even so, access to any full '62 breviary would be invaluable, given that sites like divinumofficium.com do not provide the same information that an actual book does in terms of arrangement, rubrics, etc.

    You would think that as the breviary is right up there with the '62 Missale Romanum in terms of importance, it would be around somewhere, but no one seems to have done anything about it.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 490
    Breviarium Romanum (1962)

    This is a case where we have just about everything except the real deal.

    Examples:

    Breviarium Romanum (1942 - an earlier edition)

    Breviarium Romanum (someone's project, and not complete, either)

    Nova & Vetera (expensive hard-copy)

    Baronius (expensive hard-copy)


    My understanding is that, at the time, there was never published an edition with the traditional Gallican psalter, as the Pian psalter was expected to catch on. Even so, access to any full '62 breviary would be invaluable, given that sites like divinumofficium.com do not provide the same information that an actual book does in terms of arrangement, rubrics, etc.

    You would think that as the '62 Breviarium Romanum is right up there with the '62 Missale Romanum in terms of importance, it would be around somewhere, but no one seems to have done anything about it.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,331
    Thanks for starting this thread: keep it going!
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 490
    Cantorinus seu toni communes Officii et Missae (1911)

    This small book (less than 100 pages) was published as part of the "Vatican Edition".

    It looks to have come out slightly before the Antiphonale Romanum (1912), which seems to reproduce most of its contents. What I wonder is whether any content is unique to the Cantorinus, e.g. whether there were given tones of the Gloria Patri for use at the responsories of Matins, or something else obscure like that which would not need to be included in any of the usual books we are more familiar with.

  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 490
    Litaniae Pretiosissimi Sanguinis Domini Nostri Jesu Christi

    This is the only one of the six official litanies for which an authentic chant has yet to come to light. It is thought that such a version does exist, if only it could be found. If you need to get rid of suitors by sending them on an heroic quest, please do request that they bring back a copy of this.
    Thanked by 2Kathy Vilyanor
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 271
    Ordo hebdomadae sanctae, Desclée 1957.

    Probably the last edition of Ordo hebdomadae sanctae before the reform; referenced as one of the sources in Ordo cantus officii.
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 490
    Antiphonale Romanum (1919)

    The little blue compline booklet published by the FSSP says of the Antiphonale that "the last typical edition was issued in 1919".

    So the question is: what, if any, are the differences between this and the first edition from 1912?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • I have recently purchased:

    Officium et Missae in Nativitate Domini juxta ordinem Breviarii et Missalis Romani
    (Desclée, copyright 1926, imprimatur 1948)

    This has practically no unique content, but rather presents the music needed to sing all the hours of the Divine Office for Christmas, as well as all three Masses. Interestingly, it provides Mass IX / Credo I for the Midnight Mass, Mass X / (Credo I suggested, or your choice) for the Dawn Mass, and Mass II / Credo III for the Mass of the Day.

    Approx. 130-some pages.

    Also:

    Canta Deo - Officia pro Dominicis et Festis I ac II classis - et cantus varii
    In usum Congregationis Sororum Dominae Nostrae a Caritate Boni Pastoris Andegavensis
    (Desclée, copyright and imprimatur both 1963)

    My guess is that 1963 marks the first publication of this book, insofar as it is up to date with the '60 rubrical terminology, often expunges the use of the letter "j", and presents the psalms it includes exclusively in the Pian version. Being a book proper to a certain order, it has some content which is thus unique, e.g. proper feasts. Notable in the "cantus varii" section is a Magnificat S. Ioannis Eudes which runs to slightly more than 5 pages. There is also a whole section of about 70 pages in the body of the book, titled Officium B. Mariae V., of which I do not understand the use at present.

    Approx. 660-some pages, of which the first 370 or are a Vesperale.

    A final remark: this book gives some idea of what a real from-scratch 1962-rubrics book for the office would have looked like.

    Anyhow, I post these two books as being of general interest, but also to note that if anyone is looking for something specific from either of them, I have them on hand in hard copy, and might be able to help out in this regard.

    (Eventually, of course, they ought just to go online, copyright permitting.)

    Vale in Domino,
    Jonathan
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 490
    Here is the index, and two odd chants from Canta Deo (1963).
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 490
    For anyone that is interested, I just came across three new scans of the Antiphonale Romanum:

    Antiphonale Romanum (1919)
    Antiphonale Romanum (1919)
    Antiphonale Romanum (1949)

    [Side note: later in 2016 after this thread was started, the CMAA was the first to make available online the Antiphonale Romanum (1949), which I have been very thankful for. Theirs remains the nicest scan, too.]

    Something which I may now have to do at some point: back when the AR 1919 was not available online, I purchased a copy to have for reference purposes. My copy has in the back the "mutations", or instructions for how to update the AR 1912. I don't see that either of the scans linked above includes those. (They are not necessary to the use of the AR 1919, rather the AR 1919 is already a result of applying those directives.)
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,863
    I have scanned my copy of this,
    5746 x 4216 - 578K
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,000
    Here are the Carthusian books for the OF, though their liturgy changed much less than Rome’s.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • @tomjaw : did you upload your scan of Dominica Palmarum (Desclée No. 822) on the CMAA Website or somewhere else maybe?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,863
    @Jacques Perrière

    I have not uploaded it anywhere, it is scanned as double page spread but can be easily cropped to form a pdf. I am trying to find out how best to place such documents online,
    1. What resolution?
    2. What site?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,331
    We can probably host it at CMAA. Is the scan resolution at least 300 dpi? I have software for reformatting the PDF, if that's needed. If the file is too big to e-mail, you can send it to me with a free account at a file-sharing site like Dropbox.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,863
    @chonak
    I scanned it at 600 dpi, of course this is a book with just over 100 pages with the old pre-1955 Palm Sunday.

    At the moment it is all separate double page spreads saved as .jpg.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,331
    I can break up the images and make a PDF from them, so feel free to send me a copy.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,863
    Have uploaded the folder to Dropbox,
    N.B. Have just noticed the folder contains two pages 6/7 and 8/9 (that may be of use) which are from a different book "Officia Nova Hebdomadae Sanctae, No. 851c"

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/igz2uomeizrk1ts/AAD9Og4Fy7nCMT8z1RtLJY9ea?dl=0
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,383
    Here is a Dropbox link to my 300dpi PDF copy (in one file) of Dominica Palmarum which I just made from tomjaw's scan. The file is about 130mb. I also made a 600dpi PDF copy whose size is about 330mb.

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/i7brr1fn4kkbxfd/AAC1idWXieRtdImp4W9aoe7ma?dl=0
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,863
    I have scanned a few pages of Festa Majora
    "Officium et Missa Ultima Tridui Majoris Hebdmadae cum Canto Gregoriano. 1925. No. 824"

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/yxzv6c74z1v19d7/Festa Majora.pdf?dl=0

    I have two copies one with a weak spine so may be able to hold that one flat to scan the rest... This time I have scanned it a 600dpi but in 'text' rather than 'image' on my scanning software. Which do we prefer?

    If this goes well I will scan the Benedictine appendix in my Graduale.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen CatherineS
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 490
    Another exciting one I just found: the Antiphonale Romano-Seraphicum (1928) with a supplement to bring it up to date for 1955 is now available HERE.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,863
    I have been playing around with the setting on the scanner, I can scan text, so have done it with the following at 600dpi, The link is to Dropbox...
    The Office of Compline, 1907 ed

    Do let me know if this is better than the image scan option?

    N.B. This form of the Office has long been out of use!image
    2400 x 3858 - 532K
    Thanked by 1CatherineS
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 478
    @tomjaw - I think the scan of the Festa Majora is a much better quality than that of the Office of Compline - but that may be to do with the yellowing of the pages and so on. It's also handier (in my opinion, anyway) if the book is in one pdf file rather than in separate .png images.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,863
    @CatherineS
    They have both been scanned using the same method, 600dpi using text option, Sadly the paper used in the Office of compline is poorer quality and 20 years older. The difference I am looking at is between the Palm Sunday scan which is 600dpi, but black and white scan option.

    The text option gives white pages, while the black and white option gives grey pages.

    The next job is to separate the double pages, and then assemble into a pdf.

    EDIT, Have almost got a slightly cleaned up version that I will upload as a pdf soon. I posted the original files just in case anyone has better software, with batch processing that may be able to do a better job. I have a pile of books next to my scanner so will be working on those next.
    Plainsong for schools 1 & 2
    Petit Manuel Gregorian 1924 ed.
    Cantus ad Processiones 1948 ed.
    Graduale Romanum 1924 (Benedictine supplements!) and the pages from the main part missing in later editions.
    Thanked by 1CatherineS
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 490
    Vesperale Romanum (1924)

    I just found this a few days ago, and have been very interested in the section in the back containing various chants for benediction. There is about 90% exact overlap with the similar section contained in the 1949 Antiphonale Romanum, page after page containing the same chants with the same typesetting, and then suddenly once in a while something that was cut or added or removed. For some of the pieces that are the same, the Solesmes markings are the same; for other pieces, the earlier is much more minimally marked up, and then the later edition adds more markings.

    Also interesting, this is maybe the earliest source I have seen that gives the Ave Maria in mode 1 as we know it today.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,639
    Anyone who is able and willing to scan Besnier's Manuel Practique de Chants Liturgique will win my undying adoration.
    Thanked by 1JonathanKK
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 490
    I've never heard of it. What sort of a book is it, and is there any unique content?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,863
    @JonathanKK

    The Vesperale you have linked above, is it a downloadable google book?

    In England Google claims it in not downloadable! If it is downloadable I could use the Tor browser to get it unless someone wants to put it in a drop box...
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 490
    Officium Majoris Hebdobdomadae et Octavae Paschae (1923) - Typis Polyglottis Vaticanis

    There are a couple of pictures HERE, but I cannot find it in .pdf.

    I mention this, because Jeffrey Ostrowski just posted an edition from 1949 published by H. Dessain, Mechlin, HERE, and it is an eye-opener. I did not realize previously that it literally has the entire office including Matins for all of Holy Week. That means that it has psalms marked with mediant/flex that cannot be found in other Vatican Edition books. At some point I will have to check whether all 150 psalms can now be covered; previously I had given up on finding the ones not available in the Antiphonale.

    Thanked by 3CHGiffen tomjaw Olivier