.

Apologies to MJO.

Nope, not in the choir. This one seems very stable, but I wouldn't want damage to my reputation if things didn't work out. I've seen that time and time again with friends and vindictive ex-girl/boyfriends. That's my only concern.

I did... and married her... and now have four beautiful children.

I really think it depends on how much he/she tithes.

Agreed on being good to the parents.

ClemensRomanus,

To be clear, you have one beautiful daughter already and you are expecting the birth of a second daughter (or, at least, a second child) in October?

Congratulations.

I love these stories!

On the subject of courting a parishioner (rather than dating her) may I suggest caution? One parishioner with another is less of a conundrum than a parish employee with a parishioner.

If you can't date women at church, I can't imagine where else you are supposed to meet (good, Catholic, marriageable) women.

Can't people work together and consider each other equal?

People who work together should never date - causes too many issues for the rest of the team.

If you and the other were both staff member, then I'd say a definite No. (If there's attraction that you want to go someplace, then one of you needs a new job in another company/parish.)

If the other is non staff, then it comes down to your job-description: do you have any specific ministerial or pastoral responsibility for them? If so, then probably not ok.

But if you job is simply organist or whatever and you are not expected to disciple (not a mis-spelling) people from the group(s) that the parishoner is in, then probably OK provided you 1) keep the pastor aware, 2) keep your behaviour in work situations 100% professional, and 3) continue to do even if the relationship goes west.



And to answer Adam's question: other parishes.

Don't do it. Music is your vocation. Cecilia is your girlfriend now. Anyone else will just sap and impurify your musical fluids. (Or else saddle you down with infants whose screaming will terrorize your choir loft.)

*The above text may be "purple". It may not. I leave it to you to find out.

I love babies. Lots of them. In sound-proof cry rooms. Far away from me.

And yes, I feel my "opinions" accurately reflect those of my avatar.

Biiiiiiiiiingo, Liam! :D

Thanks, everyone, for a variety of opinions, some more strongly expressed with others, and a few anecdotes. I very much like Chris Garton-Zavesky's emphasis on courting rather than dating. If fact, the former was the word my schola member used!

other parishes.

When?

Offer her an opportunity to pick between two pieces of music for Mass (real or hypothetical):

If she picks Jesu Dulcis Memoria= court with a clear conscience.

If she picks Schutte's "Here I Am Lord" run far, run fast.

Madorganist,

Thanks for your appreciation. It's wrong in another sense, too. "Dating" is what you do with moldy bread and fossils, and what your clothes and your linguistic expressions do to you. None of this is what one person should do to another.

Mate,
This sounds hopelessly romantic and I love that you ask this forum for an opinion.

As a young Catholic woman who was once part of a choir and once the organ scholar under the direction of a young Catholic male musical director I have been on the other side of this and it is probably entirely different to your situation but my following questions stem from this experience.
More of my story underneath.

Politically you have to ask yourself some questions.
Are you her "teacher" in the choir, or is she an associate artist you just so happen to conduct?
- if you are a teacher you're in a position of power/authority and you have to ask yourself, does she fancy you or does she fancy the fact that you're a bloke with skills she wishes she had.
Has it always been a case of no scandal?
- did you meet her before she became an adult/overage?
Would you feel comfortable or uncomfortable about approaching your pastor about this?
- if uncomfortable then why?
How does she go with her other friends?
- when/if they fight is it big and bad and messy?
- does she keep good company?
- do you have lots of mutual friends?
Do you know her long enough and well enough to safely say that you'll remain friends even if it doesn't work out?
- if not, will you be kind to her as she enters her place of worship and peace? (And visa versa)
Will she help you to be as good a person as you can be? (And v.v.)
Have you met her parents?
Would you feel completely comfortable explaining to your kids how you met this sheila?
Are you an outsider in her world?
Can you talk to her about it logically without getting swept up in some sort of austenesque romantic fiction?
Is there risk of there being a pattern of dating people from your choir?
- will other girls from your choir/parish think it is acceptable to get in line if things don't work out with this lady?
Are you both Christians who will put God first in your relationship?

Okay so my story, in a nutshell.
Born into a parish. Man (4 years my senior) comes along to take choir in my late teens. Begins teaching me organ for free. Invites me to all his concerts. I grow to idolise the musical director for his wisdom, control, and musicianship.
I grow up. I develop into a professional musician and lessons gradually stop, despite all intentions to keep going with the study but he starts to flirt in lessons because I am an adult now. I smile and am flattered that a bloke would look twice, everybody in the choir thinks it is mutual and even though I'm kinda chuffed by the idea something feels wrong because he knew me as a kid and I put him in the don't go there box because he was my teacher. I was very relieved someone had faith in me.
He makes a much more obvious move and I freak out and leave to give him space in his job. He makes my life miserable in the personal parish that uses the same church so I move out of there too. I don't feel like implicating him as inappropriate because I never discouraged him but I also don't think it was appropriate as unofficial a teacher as he was.
I eventually feel like an outcast in my own home parish that I grew up in because he spat the dummy at me rejecting him and I tried to hold onto the church by joining the personal parish as organist but kept finding terrible boobietraps such as switching of pedal pipes, torn pages out of my hymnal, faeces left on the pedals of the organ I eventually left... That spurred me onto something greater, nicer, better and more holy than I thought. Because of his behaviour driving me away I found the traditional mass. I'm still in touch with the priest who gave me all my sacraments. I still attend my home parish on weekdays when he doesn't play organ. I'm still in touch with my old parish friends but my new parish are full of people that helped me to become a better more grown up person. I'm doing better music than he was teaching me and I'm directing my own thoughts instead of being very dependent.
Every day I miss his friendship. He was (and if he ever does want to be STILL IS) a good friend, who I have a huge amount of respect for. Sometimes I wish the lines were never blurred and sometimes I'm glad that they were and that I got out and feel like a right galah for letting the situation get so out of hand.
He has dated two of his organ scholars since.


Truth is, I think you just need to be honest. Talk to your pastor, talk to the parishioner's parents if you really respect her, talk to a trustworthy other of the parish and ask if you think it is right or wrong. Only you really know the answer. You have to remember if you're an outsider in her place of worship that if something doesn't work out you'll be the musician at her family/friends funerals, weddings, anniversaries, sacraments etc. you're an active part of her worship situation (and she is of yours too.)
I think really if you have to ask then you need to really know your situation better. You need to guarantee it won't get messy. You can absolutely risk falling out of love without risking an entire friendship but I don't think in this situation you can risk a friendship not working because love didn't pan out.

I gotta be quite honest, I think the best sort of fruitful, faithful and full love is found by those who share a passion for sacred music as their prayer. I'm pretty sure I belong to a choir where there is history between some of its members and they are the best bunch of grouse mates who are best friends to each other. If you think that is your situation then that's fantastic, go for it.

I will pray for you whatever happens. :)

jesearle brings up a good point which I forgot: Do or did you have professional teaching responsibilities towards the person? If so, you also need to consider your code-of-conduct (or whatever your country/state) calls it obligations, too.

Right Francis! In any interaction with others, never forget that we are called for holiness.
Wether it be in dating/courting, in explaining our choices of music for mass, or discussing our new contract.

Back when I was working on pipe organs all over the place, I heard a number of accounts of organist/choir directors marrying members of their choir, and the always seemed to cause large ripples that expanded into explosions, with severe consequences for everyone.

O, wait!

Those were Episcopal churches, and both parties were already married.

Never mind!