Public Domain Text--The removal of Thee and Thou
  • orgel37
    Posts: 9
    When hymnal publishers change original public domain text, do they own a copyright to those simple changes? i.e. removal of thee, thou, thy. The text for "The King of Love My Shepherd Is" (St. Columba) has "alt." written after the composer's dates. Onelicense.net says their text (GIA publications) is public domain. I cannot find any background on when the text was changed from the original. Major differences--- All verses thee, thou, thy---you, your v.3 perverse---confused v.4 thy unction grace bestoweth--your saving grace bestowing. Any thoughts?
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,167
    They change the words so they can copyright the new version.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,050
    Looking at Worship III, there is no copyright notice for the (altered) text of "The King of Love," or any other PD text altered by the editors for that matter.

    So it appears that the new version is not under copyright since there is no notice (whereas the editors are very careful to note each and every text, tune, harmonization and arrangement under copyright in the back of the hymnal).

    I would also argue that the altered text is not able to be placed under copyright, since it is not an arrangement of PD original - it can't be called a "derivative work," for example. You can't slightly alter a PD text and then copyright it.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,815
    Well, one can copyright anything. The court will decide whether to back it up based on criteria that include whether it has creative content that is original.

    I can't think without a smile of my old choir scratching heads over a hymn that originally read "Thee may our tongues forever bless."
    Thanked by 2Andrew_Malton CHGiffen
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,050
    Well, one can copyright anything.

    At least no one can stop you from trying.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    It's not about copyrights: it's language policy.

    The changes in the example given revolve around three points.

    First, it appears that the hymnal editors (or their customers) have some objection to using "Thou", so the editors replaced "Thou" (and its forms) with the various forms of "you".

    They also get rid of the verb forms that use the antique ending "-eth" (third-person singular present-tense indicative verbs such as "bestoweth"). Often editors replace them with present participles (such as "bestowing"), even though the result may be stilted.

    Furthermore, the editors removed the word "unction". This edit actually changes the meaning of the hymn text, removing the concept of anointing from the line. Occasionally, editors change a word just because they think it doesn't sound good when sung. As for the rationale here, I can only speculate: the editors may have thought it was a rare word that would not be understood by present-day users of the hymnal. It's a pity if they think so, since one of the seven sacraments has the legitimate name "extreme unction".
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen barreltone
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    They change the words so they can copyright the new version.


    This is simply not true. Plus what everyone else said.

    Thanked by 1mattebery
  • Chaswjd
    Posts: 271
    If the original is truly public domain, there's nothing to stop you from modernizing it yourself, as long as you are the one doing the work.
    Thanked by 2Ben Adam Wood
  • Tournemire
    Posts: 74
    Whatever one's thoughts are in regards to OCP, one thing I do appreciate with them is that when it comes to traditional hymnody OCP does not change the language of the text and keep the "Thee" "Thou" etc. which is something that really irks me with GIA.
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