My job posted
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Thought you might enjoy seeing my parish job listing.
I offer it without comment: https://www.archlou.org/about-the-archdiocese/human-resources/employment-opportunities/parish-job-openings/
Its the first one. -
I can't imagine you having any difficulty with "the best of the old." Was it something to do with the "best of the new" that gave you grief? Or is this just one of those toxic parishes?
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Red herring and thread drift alert. The qualification cited isn't in conflict with CSL:121. Composers, filled with the Christian spirit, should feel that their vocation is to cultivate sacred music and increase its store of treasures.
Let them produce compositions which have the qualities proper to genuine sacred music, not confining themselves to works which can be sung only by large choirs, but providing also for the needs of small choirs and for the active participation of the entire assembly of the faithful.
The texts intended to be sung must always be in conformity with Catholic doctrine; indeed they should be drawn chiefly from holy scripture and from liturgical sources.
In more specific terms, the psalm settings by Pierluigi da Palestrina are superior to those of Gomolka. The beauty of a Monteverdi work serves the liturgy in a superior manner to those of Gesualdo. Hence generally speaking, works of Sullivan-Whitaker are superior in compositional integrity than Landrey or Haugen, or some may discern superiority of artisan skill of Kevin Allen or Frank LaRocca to that of James McMillan or Culbreth, and so forth.
Always subjective, never objective in analysis. -
She just retired. Will it be better? No. I wish.
The clergy of the diocese are also problematic: either they say what keeps them alive with the parish and chancery, they are poorly formed before seminary and in it, or they are left out to dry because they actually stick to something principled.Thanked by 1kevinf -
Matthew is correct on all points.
The "best of old and new" is problematic. Especially when you cannot cite any of it or supply criteria for what constitutes old, new or the best.
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Abbot Jonathan,
Fortunately, St. Martin of Tours thrives, despite the efforts of some of the presbyterate. Many of us are thankful for its presence.
I would rather not discuss anymore publicly. Charity demands that I do such. -
I would think that this is a job that should NOT be posted on this forum. YMMV.
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The announcement (which will probably be deleted from the web site in a few weeks) reads:
[UPDATE: identifying information has been removed]
Director of Music Ministries
Opening: Director of Music Ministries
Parish/School: Saint N. Catholic Church Somethingtown
Description: Saint N. Catholic Church in Somethingtown, ThatState, a strategic parish in the Archdiocese of Niceburg, located 33 miles south of Niceburg in growing Flam County, seeks a Director of Music Ministries. Saint N. Parish (Est. 1851) consists of 1700 households including 480 students in a Blue Ribbon parochial school. The Director will be a contributing member of a planning team to design and build a new church scheduled for groundbreaking in 2020.
Competitive salary along with employee full benefit package. Start date is flexible. Applications accepted through April 30, 2016.
Qualifications: The successful candidate will exhibit a passion for building an excellent music program based on incorporating the “best of the old and best of the new” in the Catholic tradition. He or she needs a working knowledge of Roman Catholic liturgy; mastery of the pipe organ; skill in choral direction; effective Sunday and seasonal music planning and assist parishioners in planning for the Rite of Marriage and the Rite of Christian Burial.
Contact: Please send cover letter and resume to:
[contact info deleted]
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I read it on the website, but given Kevin's experiences, would we really want to shepherd anyone else into it?
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Indeed, no. I'm posting it here as context for this conversation. Of course, if the parish should wish to post the job announcement as such, they're welcome to do so.
Thanked by 1CharlesW -
Mama,
some of your kids need a hug,
some of your kids need a spanking.
Hail Mary ...Thanked by 1Ben -
Kevin, where are you going?
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I thought we had a policy here that details regarding problems of a specific parish were not to be given - the reason we close job postings from comment.
Seems someone's found a back-door to the policy, with the complicity of an administrator.
Don't get me wrong; I'm glad there are people now willing to "name names". However, I think in order to be consistent we should now remove the "closed from comment" policy on the jobs listings.
YMMV.Thanked by 1melofluent -
I think that in this case the details were already known well-enough for someone to avoid the place.
As to job listings, it seems the listing ought to be it. I don’t have a reason, really, just a feeling that it’s a notice which ought to be on its own. -
I think some of the "anointed" have developed a policy regarding postings. My first memory of that "policy" was something Noel said after posting some old job openings from the AGO site that were public knowledge to begin with. Perhaps Noel wasn't responsible, but his name was associated with my first encounter with the "policy." Whether or not the majority ever went along with that policy or had any input into it, I don't know. I think parishes that are toxic should be called such so no unsuspecting musician gets pulled into them. In any event, there was no official posting in this instance, just a conversation started by the person leaving the job. That's hardly a back door.
When a position is posted, nothing prevents another poster from noting that he can be contacted by private message for information.Thanked by 1chonak -
Last November I played and sang in a concert that Kevin conducted, in which the major work was a "best of the new" piece. He consistently did the best of the old and new (my criteria for "best" being determined by competent trained musicians, not subjective).
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Everything I hear about Kevin is good. I would think any parish would consider him an asset. And no, we have never met in person.
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Personally I don't think this kind of thread is productive, for several reasons.
-One man's meat is another man's poison. There could be a good musical/ philosophical/ personality fit for another DM at this parish, under this pastor, and s/he might be unduly discouraged from applying.
-I don't think it is a good idea for the CMAA to develop a reputation for "naming names." This might hurt members' chances of being considered for jobs in the future.
-It's kind of wasteful, time-wise. This is the NFL, and if we're always calling foul everytime we get sacked, we're not moving forward with the program, which is the whole idea.
I have the utmost sympathy for Kevin and for many others, but I think it's counter-productive to talk about things in this particular way. -
I have the utmost sympathy for Kevin and for many others, but I think it's counter-productive to talk about things in this particular way.
Perhaps so, but I still maintain one can create a post asking those with questions about a position to use private messaging for discussion. I frequently use it for discussing items I don't want to put on the forum.-It's kind of wasteful, time-wise. This is the NFL, and if we're always calling foul everytime we get sacked, we're not moving forward with the program, which is the whole idea.
You say we are the NFL, but did you mention minus the salaries? LOL. I think CMAA is more of a gnat or gadfly to the major music organizations. There aren't that many of us. I often wonder how seriously the big boys take any of us. -
Personally I don't think this kind of thread is productive, for several reasons.
-One man's meat is another man's poison. There could be a good musical/ philosophical/ personality fit for another DM at this parish, under this pastor, and s/he might be unduly discouraged from applying.
-I don't think it is a good idea for the CMAA to develop a reputation for "naming names." This might hurt members' chances of being considered for jobs in the future.
-It's kind of wasteful, time-wise. This is the NFL, and if we're always calling foul everytime we get sacked, we're not moving forward with the program, which is the whole idea.
I have the utmost sympathy for Kevin and for many others, but I think it's counter-productive to talk about things in this particular way.
Kathy, I hear what you are saying and am generally supportive. However, from another perspective, namely as a husband and father: I have given talks on sacred music to seminarians, wherein I encountered prospective priests (of every ideology) who made comments like, 'Oh, when I get in, that person's gone!'
Regardless of that person's competence or taste, he is still a person. It's important that we realize there is occasionally a disconnect in the clergy (as in all parts of life!) where they do not understand or appreciate this reality. When I go home tonight to four other human beings who depend on me for support, I realize it, as I do even now sitting at my desk.
I think Kevin has done an admirable job of keeping as dispassionate as possible, and simply wants people to be prepared. As someone who moved halfway across the country for his current job...and is now about to get a new boss, I appreciate efforts (and threads) like this, provided they stay charitable and do not turn into a sin-by-detraction contest. -
(deleted by user)
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Shouldn't a person have the right to waste their own time in this matter if they feel called to shed light on problems and try to help correct such? ...I am giving strong consideration to starting my own site listing possible toxic situations and persona for others to be cautious thereof.
I see your point and find myself often in agreement. There are limits to what I would discuss publicly on this forum. I did mention more than once the private message function which I use for more sensitive items. Sometimes I use it when I am seeking input and haven't made up my mind on an issue.
No disrespect intended, good Abbot. After working with priests and other "officials" for years, I can tell you the number that I actually admire has dwindled. Those fortunate to work with good ones should rejoice in their good fortune.
As for the toxic parishes, I would really hate for a musician to move cross country and not know what they were getting themselves into. If I had such information, I would share it, maybe by private message. -
When I spoke up to the pastor, I was told to keep silent or lose my position. Yet in the documents and contract I signed and swore to, I was mandated to report abuse. So, I spoke up to the bishop and was fired!
I am pretty sure that was illegal. As a mandated reporter, you cannot, by law, be removed from your position because you reported abuse. I believe the priest would also be guilty of child neglect by telling you not to report the issue. In that case, both men would be reported. -
If I may, is it possible that many folk (not only CMAA-ers) tend to over-generalize, homogenize and then surmise that these and all vexing manner of things are globally common and therefore have globally common solutions? That is hardly the case or reality, particularly as regards the relationships between supervisors and employees. Success and failure can attend identical circumstances based upon so many criteria.
Abbot, IIRC, we had an off-line discussion about a local director and his "parish" circumstances which were of interest to you for critical reasons. That is appropriate, namely out of the public eye and interest. If a situation such as Dr. Romeri's former position and superior is publicized by other media, well that becomes fair game for public consumption and interest. If our parishes were scrutinized by Ship of Fools, that is of public interest. Proclivities of pastors and staff must be confined to their locales. YMMV -
I once witnessed physical abuse of a kindergarten child by a deacon. When I spoke up to the pastor, I was told to keep silent or lose my position.
In this state, you commit a crime by not reporting any kind of child abuse. Your pastor would have been jailed here.If I may, is it possible that many folk (not only CMAA-ers) tend to over-generalize, homogenize and then surmise that these and all vexing manner of things are globally common and therefore have globally common solutions?
Always the case and not just here, but society, in general. News careers, non-profit groups, and others would go out of business if everyone acted like Christians. Homeless people tend to congregate in my city because competing non-profits vie for funds and can't do enough for the homeless. Many of us think they attract them. It always has to be some cause that we need to fund or some offense we need to correct. What would the little old ladies in tennis shoes do with themselves if there was nothing to advocate for? LOL
" Well, Jane, it just goes to show you, it's always something!" Roseanne Roseannadanna.
Ship of Fools is the greatest!
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Kathy - in what particular way should we discuss matters like this? Should we whisper it only amongst each other under cloak of private email, phone call secrecy and behind closed doors?
My suggestion would be yes, that is exactly what we should do. We all have friends, we all have confidants. Talk to them. Reach out to other people and as long as they can be trusted, let them help take the edge off our sorrows.
My point is that these discussions are counterproductive.Why shouldn't parishes, clergy and other situations and institutions with toxic histories, be called out and identified to all? Shouldn't a person have the right to waste their own time in this matter if they feel called to shed light on problems and try to help correct such?
Let's say we do things your way. Everyone takes every painful situation they've ever encountered in the Church and publicizes it as much as possible.
What is the end game? What do you think will be accomplished? -
Abbot, I provided you a direct recollection of a discreet exchange between you and me regarding your critical concerns about a local DMM and the management of that program. Are you willing to reproduce that exchange, with names and places, in this forum now? I sincerely hope not.
Chonak, I know that I've overstayed my ex-lurker visa, but this thread no longer serves any viable and positive outcome. I advise a sinking.Thanked by 1noel jones, aago -
What good does catharsis do, exactly?
I really don't understand how exposing people helps. It seems to me to be a fantasy to believe it helps--unless I am missing something.
We are not discussing child abuse of any kind, by the way, so I think it's safe to avoid that rabbit hole. We are discussing professional differences.Thanked by 1noel jones, aago -
BruceL, I think this probably goes both ways. You'll probably hear people at a Colloquium talking smack about priests, and somebody else saying, "I would quit in a heartbeat! Sue him!"I have given talks on sacred music to seminarians, wherein I encountered prospective priests (of every ideology) who made comments like, 'Oh, when I get in, that person's gone!'
Yadda yadda yadda. IMHO, what is said by audiences at talks about sacred music should probably be left there, because so much of it is venting.Thanked by 1noel jones, aago -
Y'know, even though no one actually criticized the parish on this thread, I think it probably is best not to name the parish here, so I will edit that out of the job notice above. Thanks for making the point.
Incidentally, talking about professional differences here is fine. If you want to talk about unethical conduct, you can name names on your own web site, but please don't make charges about individuals here. There is a reason for that. If a user denounces wrongdoing and names individuals, he might possibly, perhaps accidentally, commit detraction or libel. CMAA is not in a position to verify anyone's claims, or even the identities of many users, so, as the admin, I want to avoid a situation where CMAA would be unwittingly helping someone commit those faults.
You can certainly write on your own website -- it costs nothing to create a blog, and you have maximum freedom there. -
BruceL, I think this probably goes both ways. You'll probably hear people at a Colloquium talking smack about priests, and somebody else saying, "I would quit in a heartbeat! Sue him!"
Yadda yadda yadda. IMHO, what is said by audiences at talks about sacred music should probably be left there, because so much of it is venting.
I think this is a different situation. I'm currently in a position where I'm asked for advice on hiring/firing/etc. quite often because of the "prestige" of this position (I'm not intending a #humblebrag, just a bona fide): you'd be surprised how often this sort of cavalier attitude toward someone's life and livelihood comes up.
I would extend it the other way, too, to be honest: if someone is living in an objectively sinful situation, they should be given ample time to resolve it. If they do not wish to, it should be examined whether or not the previous administration was complicit (either explicitly or implicitly) with the situation. If they were complicit, severance should be provided. I think, as a new generation of priests become pastors, this will become more common and therefore more important to address. -
I once witnessed physical abuse of a kindergarten child by a deacon. When I spoke up to the pastor, I was told to keep silent or lose my position.
I found this quote very upsetting. I have been fortunate in my career not to have been in the position that the Abbot was. All of us work with folks who are not to our liking, but what he has described is criminal and likely subjects the particular parish, priest, deacon and diocese to quite a nasty lawsuit in addition to whatever stigma would attach to the felony. But what truly bothers me is that there was no mention of reporting the abuse to the appropriate police department. IMHO, the priest (and later the bishop) was the wrong person to report to in the first place. -
He didn't say how long ago this happened. The laws were very different at one time, and it is a good thing they have been changed. You can't hold folk's feet to the fire for following laws and procedures in effect at the time, whether you like them or not. I can remember when current legal reporting requirements didn't even exist.
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I am not holding anyone's feet to anything. Since no date was offered, I read the story as though it was contemporary. I am merely suggesting that what I have read may not be complete. (blame the lawyer in me) In the abbot's defense, there may be a good reason (possibly a legal one) that he left that particular thing out.Thanked by 1CharlesW
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I can think of incidents I knew about in my early teaching career that might be viewed less favorably in today's climate. Were they illegal? Maybe today they would be judged differently.
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My concern about this story presumed that it was a somewhat recent event.
I never meant to be critical of the abbot. He was clearly harmed by his encounter with evil. I have always had an issue with allowing an offending institution to police itself. -
I understand, and definitely agree with you.Thanked by 1kenstb
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Thanks, Abbot Coel. I was certain that you had left out some important parts of the story. It made no sense to me from reading your posts on this forum that you would have stopped at the bishop. As for Adam's suggestions for disposal by dynamite, there is a drum set in my parish that I'd love to put on the list...Thanked by 1CharlesW
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WORDS ARE SO... SO.... MEANINGFUL
Really?
Are ya sure?
Yours,
Humpty Dumpty
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There are many "California's," Francis. Our mutual friend Jeff Culbreath could wax prolific on those northern quadrant folk who are lobbying for secession as the Sovreign State of Jefferson (I love that.) And even in the US 101 socialist/celebrity liberal coastal strip (San Diego/LA/San Luis Obispo/San Jose/San Franciso/Marin County/Sonoma-Napa, there are plenty good folks who wouldn't want to be stuck on the drifting isle of Moonbeam Brown's Demo California!
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(deleted)
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"If it helps" Pluth...
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One man's meat is another man's poison. There could be a good musical/ philosophical/ personality fit for another DM at this parish
I'll ruminate on the first two: "musical/philosophical." ("Personality" can't be part of THIS comment.)
One cannot accept the implied proposition that "not best" is fitting for the worship of God. That also happens to be the philosophical foundation.
Now, then. Sacred music (not to be confused with hymnody) has been repeatedly described by the highest authority as that which 'elevates the minds AND the hearts of the Faithful to God' AND that which 'glorifies God.' It's not either/or; it is both in both those clauses.
One might quibble at the margins over whether, for example, Rheinberger or Peeters 'raises the mind' or 'raises the heart', but those attributes are in rough balance for both those composers. Same quibbling applies to, say, Bruckner v. Palestrina. AND in both cases, their music 'glorifies God.'
Properly understood, hymnody is not held to those high standards, but it would be an error to abandon any of those standards totally in hymns, considering that they are utilized in the Holy of Holies. Put another way, there are expectations for the 'experience' of Mass which are markedly different from the expectations for the 'experience' of the Mall of America. Neither the Mass nor the sanctuary is trivial; and the faithful should not be allowed to confuse them for another place.
They have a right to expect integrity: sacred time, sacred space (etc.) so in fact, if the philosophy driving the music is flawed, the music will be flawed.
The best solution, of course, is to excise most of the hymnody in favor of Propers and to choose very carefully the "sacred" music based on the criteria above. -
I think you can sum it up by saying those Christians are hell to work for and with.
There is more to sacred music than chant and some really good things have been written since chant developed. Musicians with high degrees of integrity and knowledge of what the church expects have little difficulty blending hundreds of years of sacred compositions and producing a sacred and beautiful result.
Francis, I will not unthank you.Thanked by 1MBW -
Wow, I go away for a few days on an interview and this thread gets interesting.
I offered the listing without comment. If you want to know more, please pm me. I am happy to disseminate the information but privately.
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The USA quickly became a friggin' mission field as young priests rebelled against authority.
It wasn't just the young priests. They had help from some of the bishops, too. I remember listening to a 45-minute sermon by a bishop telling us what wonderful things he and his brother bishops had done for us at Vatican II. The man was a fool.Thanked by 1MBW
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