I mean, do what you have to do... I guess. I have learned compromise in most matters liturgical makes me upset. So I avoid it. You’ll find others who think like that.

What you seem to be saying is that there is a difference between sacred music for the liturgy and devotional music, which is a good distinction to make. My brother is a skilled classical guitarist. He agrees that the guitar is a poor instrument for congregational singing. However, we have experimented playing together (I am an organist), with the guitar playing in more of a continuo style. Played skillfully with psalm tones, it can be quite effective and beautiful. The two instruments work well together (you often hear a similar combination in period-instrument baroque recordings, particularly in Italian music), the organ sustaining the chords and the guitar/lute/theorbo doing arpeggiation.

I am no fan of guitar since as was mentioned, it is usually played in a "folksy" style. I have been involved with Spanish Baroque and Classical era Latin masses that had guitar parts, played in a "classical" style - no strumming. That worked out well. My only comment is that the guitar and the harpsichord don't have the volume necessary to accompany a larger congregation in a big space. I know, they can be amplified, but that kind of destroys the tonality of the instruments and they come off sounding harsh - and over-amplified, of course.

However, one has to acknowledge the portability of the guitar, making it useful in places without adequate instruments. Even the purists here would admit moving a 10-ton organ isn't practical. Some smaller churches have such limited resources, they can't afford even smaller organs.

It sounds to me like the original poster is helping and improving a less than desirable situation. Therefore, party on!

...and others will say, "We need to take all the guitars in the world and burn them," (even if you know you gave the best performance of your life).

I have concluded that burning many of the guitarists would be a better solution.

Hi Ken - welcome to the forum, and congratulations on your courage which you demonstrate 1) by offering your services to the church in a difficult situation and 2) by posting your first post here and including the word 'guitar'. ;-)
Seriously, you have undertaken to do a great service, because without worship the people of God can go nowhere, and helping to improve the quality of worship is a great service.
Despite what you might think after some of the above comments (really guys! was that welcoming????) 'traditional' Mass leanings are not for the snobbish - on the contrary. The native music of the Roman rite, chant, is freely available to singers and musicians on the internet (no royalties to pay to big business and no expensive books to buy - check out the resources on CMAA website); it is also the simplest, and most accessible sort of music for a congregation to learn, if they have someone who will invest some time and effort into it.
I would suggest that before you start, you consider the following: In your ideal picture ( which should be formed by the ideal picture of the church, tempered by the realities of your situation) what would the Mass you are serving at look like?
You have the greatest asset to hand - a priest who sings.
You don't say if you yourself sing at all, though clearly you are musical so I am going to assume you do.
Check out the three levels of sung participation in the Mass which as specified in the document Musica Sacra. As you will see, it gives a lot more emphasis to the singing of the parts of the Mass by the priest and the congregation, than to the hymns we usually think of as the 'singing at Mass'. Based on this, what can you do to help this priest to sing his parts, and to teach and encourage the congregation to sing theirs?
I would note two things - asking the congregation to respond in song to a spoken invitation by the priest is a lot less effective than having the priest sing his part, and for them to respond in song; secondly, accompaniment may actually inhibit congregational singing, if they are led to believe that this is something they should be listening too, rather than singing themselves. So brush off your vocal skills before you pick up an instrument.
Finally when it comes to singing the Propers (first choice) or replacing them with other, appropriate sacred music, again, although musicians don't always want to acknowledge this, the music of the church gives priority to the text which is sung, not to elaborate musical arrangements to tickle the ears. While some occasional instrumental pieces on your classical guitar might be nice they should probably be used sparingly, and possible seen as an opportunity to introduce a melody to the congregation which they will then learn to sing.
Finally finally, can you build a group around your generous offer of help? And learn with them, or train them, as best you can, to know and love the music of the church? Can you involve some young people in the project? When it comes to chant, children learn quicker, retain more, have less prejudices, and a much longer future for implementation that adult singers, so they are well worth investing in.
It is hard to imagine what Mass should sound like, so going to the Colloquium, or seeking out a church with good practice might help, it is a different experience to sit immersed in the music while at prayer, than to listen to it on the internet.
God bless you for your generosity, and may the Holy Spirit guide your endeavours.

Most people don't know what purple text means... that's a very "inside culture" thing around here.

Then there is that yellow square...

I second all of Bonnie's wisdom.

Was the priest directing a choir (of whatever fashion) that was leading the singing, or was he simply leading the congregation? Also, what style of music was it and what hymnal do they have?

Some Observations & Ideas:

1) Echoing Bonnie: chant is the natural musical voice of the Roman Rite. What Mass setting are they currently using; does it work unaccompanied? Try teaching them the ICEL Mass (in English) and gradually add some parts (in Latin) from Gregorian Settings from the Kyriale Simplex and the Kyriale Romanum. The Sanctus more Ambrosiano from the K.S. is very, very effective; and the Kyrie from K.R. Mass XI (orbis factor) is too, also Kyrie & Gloria from Mass VIII (de Angelis) is well known; and Agnus Dei ad libitum II from the K.R. is beautiful and simple.

2) With more traditional hymnody, unison, unaccompanied congregational singing can be very effective: as a matter of fact, looking at the Protestant English tradition---which is where most of our current 'traditional' hymns in English come from---that was the norm in the early days. Those arrangements of tunes like OLD HUNDREDTH by Dowland & Co. were meant as private devotional music for home use, in church they were sung unison. So don't be afraid of that!

3) Begin asking around the congregation (after Mass--Do they have any kind of coffee hour?) if there are any people who really enjoy singing. Form a schola cantorum to help lead the congregation and sing the propers. Begin with the Communion Chant. Good collections for this are Paul F. Ford's By Flowing Waters, which is an English-ized Graduale Simplex: It contains seasonal chants, in modern notation: very good for people just starting out; Fr. Samuel Webers Propers fo the Mass for Sundays and Solemnities: propers, in English, in Chant notation, from the Roman Gradual & Roman Missal, each text has four different settings, ranging from easy to difficult; Adam Bartlett's Lumen Christi Simple Gradual: Simple settings of the Propers from the Gradual and Missal in English; and Bartlett's Simple English Propers, simple settings in English from the Roman Gradual.

4) Become a member of CMAA: you get the quarterly journal, and member discounts on the Sacred Music Colloquium, Chant intensives, and Winter Sacred Music conferences--which you should think about attending.

5) Don't be afraid to ask questions here, you will learn A TON. But do have a thick skin: the sarcasm flows as readily around here as does the fine wine. Bon Appetit.

The key is to do it from the loft or other place where you are out of site. Seriously. People will be much more receptive. The music will sell itself.

You will find yourself hired to play for weddings without question.

Your playing of your arrangement of O Sons and Daughters is stunningly beautiful and ADORATION as well.

I'd suggest when playing solo during Mass to avoid all well-known hymns and delve into the older hymns as you have done with these two. What you have done with these two surpasses what we hear played on the organ in many, if not most, parishes.

Since they are not among the top 40 of hymns, it takes away any sense of commercialism.

Stunningly beautiful and in the tradition of the great guitar masters.

...and others will say, "We need to take all the guitars in the world and burn them," (even if you know you gave the best performance of your life).


I have concluded that burning many of the guitarists would be a better solution.

That's OK. I don't mind one bit. You see, I never went through RCIA. For a few years before I became Catholic, I attended a few Orthodox parishes and even went through 8 months of one on one catechism with an Antiochian Orthodox priest. When my Orthodox days came to a close after a rather vocal differing of opinions with that priest, the Catholic priest at my boundary parish saw fit to accept my Orthodox catechism and let me forego RCIA. All to say that I know full well that 90% of the Orthodox faithful feel that all organs need to be burned, and a serious chunk of that 90% would look the other way if organists got caught in the flames.

(Since you guys don't know me that well, yet, tongue planted firmly in cheek.....;-))

...would have walked out the doors...after... burning the clergy responsible.

And therein lies the difference between Eastern and Western folk. The horrors of post-VII liturgy would never have happened in the East. Westerners, on the contrary, will just sit still, swallow, blink, and take whatever they're dished out. And after a mere two or three decades they even think of it as 'traditional'.

With all due respect, I -got- the joke and was simply responding with a similar timbre. If the humor was not obvious or overtly dark, my apologies. Besides....masses that I have attended in the last 5 years that involved guitarists, -I'm- the one that fights back the overwhelming desire to burn the guitar.

It brings to mind an interview of Chet Atkins, where he was asked what he thought of Hendrix, to which he responded, "I saw him on TV once. He burned a guitar." The interviewer asked Chet if that bothered him, Chet replied, "No, not at all! Many of them NEED to be burned."

My conversion was not one of intellectual assent, it was born out of faith and obedience. In the early days of my re-acclimating from the Orthodox to the Catholic environment, when I first heard that...that....that awwwfffuuul and blatant rip off of the Desmond classic "Take Five" applied to "Sing To the Lord a New Song", I raised my eyes to the sky and asked God, "You are kidding, right?" (Tongue in cheek, guys!)

I love it here.

I don't get out much. What is CARM?

Francis, I was trying to be charitable.

Charismatic and Renewal Music? I literally have no idea

I second going to the Colloquium or another conference of a similar calibre and aesthetic. There is nothing like learning from such knowledgeable people and singing with those who are like-minded. Best wishes for a long and fruitful service to the Church!

A skilled guitarist is worth a thousand bad organists. Pay no heed to the uncharitable.

The first thing you need to do is pray:
Is this where God wants you right now? And are you and your family willing to make the personal sacrifices that involvement in church music requires? (You know where church musicians spend a LOT of time at Christmas and Easter, when everyone else is partying or holdaying, right? Do you have a loving heart and a desire to serve God's people with your musical gifts? Can you show Christ's love to people even if they don't like your music?

If you think that this is what God is asking of you right now, and that you are up to it - then as well as some of the advice above, you need to make friends in the parish. You cannot do this alone, and even a little talent can go a long way if it is accompanied by a heart that is willing to serve and a mind that is teachable.

Ken,
Please check your message inbox, two clicks to the right of the discussion button above the comments thread window.

I can't see why this style of playing would be any more obtrusive than organs or orchestras---except, perhaps, in 19th century Russia.

Everything western is obtrusive in 19th-century Russia. Is outrage!

In my humble opinion, the problem with guitar usage in liturgy is the same of the piano. Not only they don't have the same acknowledged features of a pipe organ -- like the sustained emission and huge dynamic range, among many others, which are very useful for the liturgy -- but also they are too much used for secular/folk or even anti-catholic music, specially since a few decades ago (but also before). Of course, there're many different ways to perform the piano or the guitar. But, unlike the voice, which is also used for the same bad (would say, rock'n'roll music) or profane (opera or folk) music, guitar/piano and other (semi-)prepared instruments always have so much in common in their sound production, despite of what or how well they are being played. If people want a liturgy is a mood and atmosphere mystically distant to the world, they should consider choosing repertoire and instrumentation that lesses the chance of being interpreted by the Mass assistance as an unwanted continuation of worldly production inside the church, for the sake of (facilitating) rising minds to God. By the way, this similarly one of many useful things of latin usage in liturgy. Beyond an organ education and performance in liturgy that begun 2 years and a half ago with the installation of a traditional apostolate in my local area, I'm also a professional symphony orchestra violinist. Even so, I rarely perform the violin in liturgy, and only do when there's an special and very convenient consonance between a great feast, repertoire, and play in a manner somewhat different to what I do every day. For example, the last two times we used the violin in liturgy was in the Communio program for the Easter Vigil Mass, when we performed the Biber Resurrection Sonata (from the Rosary Sonatas), with all the scordatura which turns the violin a lot different animal from its daily and common usage, and with some tempi, emission and articulation adjustments that might make the whole thing somewhat similar to the organ and its predicates. The other time was about a Bach violin concerto movement, played right after exit procession, as an extension to the recessional program (begun with the organ) and to help giving a distinctive mood for an special celebration.

The guitar playing and repertoire could be also treated with the utmost care, but I'm afraid there would always be considerable vestige that would make this instrument unappropriate for the liturgy. For people, like me, who dedicated decades of their lives to such instruments, there are many ways to help better and safely the liturgy. How about taking advantage of music education and experience to learn deeply gregorian chant and educate/rehearse an schola cantorum and/or a polyphonic choir? Or even learn to play the organ? This is also a two-way road. I became a better violinist after begun those chant and organ immersions.

Antonio, quite frankly......no.

As educated and pious and correct as your post is, it 100% -ignores- the whole premises of the OP:

-This is a small and relatively poor (yet strikingly beautiful, dynamic, and very reverent) parish in a blighted part of the city.

-I would be using -my- talents to fill a need. Just as I said earlier in this thread that my conversion had little to do with intellectual assent and everything to do with faith and obedience, myself taking this task is also out of faith and obedience and not intellectual assent.

I am confident that if any of you thought it absolutely necessary that this parish has a proper pipe organ, the priest would be more than happy to let any one of you either restore or replace the existing one and man it.

Charismatic and Renewal Music? I literally have no idea

The Catholic discussion forums at Christian Research & Apologetics Ministry. Also known as the platform of the purest online hatred any Catholic will ever face.

Ken, most of the chorale music gems in this country were at one point struggling urban parishes. So, what Antonio says ought to be someone’s goal, even if not your own.

...what about trying to faithfully implement the teachings of the church on sacred music? I have no problem, outside of Lent of course, with your instrument being used in some way liturgically. But, I think with instruction from someone of your caliber would do wonders for a parish. I suspect you would enjoy the Colloquium run by the host organization, the CMAA.

Ken,
I've been observing my Lenten fast from all things internet (except e-mail, because it's my Lenten penance, not everyone else's), but since today is Sunday, and Sunday's not part of Lent, I'll respond.

1) Welcome aboard.
2) I've arranged organ music for classically played guitar (as part of an ensemble which included a flute and a trumpet), so I don't think the guitar should be consigned to the dustbin.
3) Other instruments are, indeed, permitted at Mass -- but context is everything in this case. The criterion isn't primarily a musical one, but that the instrument be fitting (or be able to be made fitting) for the august ceremonies of the Church's public worship of God, sometimes called the Liturgy. So, it is quite possible for orchestral instruments to be fitting instruments when they contribute to the solemnity of the liturgical ceremonies. It is possible for beautiful music to be written for guitar. It is possible for a guitar to accompany a solo voice or even a small ensemble, and still be played in a manner fitting for the august ceremonies of the Church's public worship of God -- for it is possible for a harp and a harpsichord to be, also. The question to answer is this: is a guitar, played as it is designed to be played, and unamplified by microphones, capable of more than this? A single violin would encounter the same question.
4) Strumming i.e., playing a guitar in a manner most consistent with the common (vulgar in the sense of "by the common people", not in the sense of "rude") conception of how the guitar should be played is inconsistent with what the Church tells us about music and instruments suitable for the public worship of the Church, for the same reason that Verdi's music is, mostly: it was written with the opera stage in mind, and continues to hold that association in the public mind.
5) If you have a pastor who has unaccompanied singing as the default position, since you've been given this gift, why not use it? Encourage the congregation to sing, to hear itself honoring God.