Ashes no more
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Since the Eagles thread went (in a happy way) off-topic, I thought I'd just point to this:

    http://hymnographyunbound.blogspot.com/2007/02/dad-that-songs-weird.html
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Might I add my usualy points on this:

    1) I think the term "heresy" is overused. As I will mention in the next points, it's a confusion, not a strict heresy.

    2) Does ANYONE actually know what the ashes mean?? Anyone? This is the "Favorite sacrament" of the American church. Here's a clue: open your bibles, you know those books that you go on about how great it is that you're "allowed" to read after Vatican II but don't touch except to record first communion dates. Read the old testament. It's fricken' repentance! Don't get me wrong, I'm glad people like repenting. So is God. If they want to do more of it, there's even the (real) sacrament of Reconciliation! Somehow though, I think Catholics actually view the ashes as a source of pride and how warm-fuzzy-group-hug special We all are. Sorry, exactly the opposite.

    3) That said, where do these ideas come from? Baptism. In Baptism we're marked with the cross, born/created anew, etc. You can replace the word "ashes" with "water" or something and it's just about 90% correct - ok, "we" don't create ourselves anew, but you know you can't write a song after Vatican 2 without referring to Ourselves - give Conry a break. So it's not quite a heresy (especially since the Church never defined mixing up your sacraments and sacramentals as a heresy, and she gets to decide) but it is VERY inaccurate. And it MUST NOT be sung in a Catholic church, or preferably even by Catholics. Or any Christian, for that matter.

    4) How do we get around this? We can't. We're just screwed. We have churches filled with Catholics who think that communion is a symbol, contraception is ok, and that Jesus said "Ye must be born again of ashes and the Spirit." We can't do anything but stick to our guns in selecting music. PRIESTS, on the other hand, need to address this head-on. They need to make ashes on the head the LEAST favorite sacramental. They need to preach the graces of our Baptisms. Of course that will lead to complaints and people leaving to attend St. Bozo the Clown (to quote Fr. Cranky).

    There are very VERY few songs which are bad enough that I will, WITHOUT pastoral consideration of any sort, say "ban them". This is one of them.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    I disagree, Gavin. Pelagian Heresy is clearly present in verse 1. Several theologians, that is, priests who have attended seminary and in whom I have a great deal of respect, have clearly identified it. So, in this case heresy is not inappropriate or an overuse of the term.

    The problem with the texts isn't a confusion over the symbolism (?) of ashes as a sacramental, it is the notion that we rise again to create ourselves anew. Here is the Pelagian Heresy and the reason for objections over this text. Equally, and as mentioned before, ashes are a sacramental and as such are something we are offered as a vehicle of graces, not the other way around. We don't offer ashes to anyone for the purposes of anything, let alone creating ourselves anew.

    I believe that there has been a systematic weakening of teaching the Truths of the Church and the opposite heretical teachings in clear, unequivocal terms. As a result, even those who should not shrink from the use of the term "heresy" suggest that it's "too strong a word. Heresy really doesn't exist anymore." B as in B, S as in S. We should no more quickly accept this text or others like it that promote heresy, or at the least a weakened, watered-down version of the Truths of the Faith than we would accept a priest who preaches on a subject we know promotes the same heresy. In other words, if you think a particular text may be really bad, but not fall within your understood definition of heresy, imagine hearing the words coming from a priest in the context of a homily and ask yourself if you'd give it a pass under those circumstances.

    When we hide behind the veil of "pastoral consideration" to excuse ourselves from pointing out those texts which have the potential of weakening the faith of another, we fail to enter into the baptismal call to love our neighbor. It is important that the Truth, and not "pastoral consideration," be that which sets us free. That said, I recognize that there are folk who are better equipped to deliver messages of Truth with great sensitivity and Christian love (charity) than others, and we need to be willing to ask them to do so when we cannot. BUT we must not shrink away from naming heresy where it clearly exists.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Wow, David Andrew, this is very good and very strong.

    "It is important that the Truth, and not "pastoral consideration," be that which sets us free."

    How much I wish I could make a big sign for my church, so everyone in my church can read it!
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,183
    All of this discussion points to the significant issue of horizontal-ism in the liturgy. In other words, its all about me, myself and I. The cardinal sin of the last 25-30 years.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Did Jesus say love your God and love your neighbor? Which one is first? Ithink He meant it, in that order. Because of His love, the True love, we can even love our enemies.
  • One line I found comical in said song is in verse 2:
    Give our stum-bl-ings direction (yes, a THREE-syllable "stumblings").
    BMP
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    Kevin,

    Actually, all the way back in 1907 Pius X wrote the encyclical Pascendi Dominici gregis in which he identifies Modernism as not only heretical, but the synthesis of all heresies. Horizontalism in the liturgy is part and parcel of Modernism.

    Was Pius X being too harsh?
  • Jan
    Posts: 242
    "Dust you are. And to dust you shall return."
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Someone please tell why and how the Bishops appove this kind of songs to be in our catholic hymnal? I was just looking at the "Gather," says in the front, "Published with ecclesiastical approval, Archidiocese of Chicago." Is this appoved only by Chicago diocese and no other dioceses involed?
    Does anyone know who is in charge of this approving and who supervise them and what's the procedure? I'd really like to know. Not as a musician, but just as a catholic who sings the song from the pew to actively participate.

    I don't blame the publisher or the songwriter. They are just ignorant, like me. Because we are not taught right. Because we are not fed with the Truth. But the priests or Bishops who supposed to guard the Truth and feed the faithful, how can they do this? I read somewhere in the VCII document, vernaculas are allowed in liturgy, so that the faithful may not go hungry (I'm not sure how exactly it's said). That sounds really good. But I rather go hungry than being fed with a poison. This kind of song is a poison to our souls. They asked us to open mouth wide, so we can swallow the poison? I'm sure there are lot more that I don't even know and sing on Sundays, because I was told to sing all the songs, otherwise I'm not actively participating in the celebration. People who want to be good catholics and try to actively participate are more damamged. To me this is an abuse. Worse than any, because it damages our soul. We know how powerful the music is. The children in the school and the congregation sang this "Ashes" every year, especially during Lent. (I still remember the piano accomp. of that song, I thought she was pretty good. My former MD(organist) didn't like it musically, but had to, because he thought this is the song we supposed to sing during Lent.) People and the children might not remember what homily they heard last year, but they do remember the song. The song (the heresy) is in their heads. If everything what I said is true and not mistaken (I hope I'm mistaken), this got to be stop. I don't apologize for my upset tone of statements here, unless I'm mistaken.
  • According to Thomas J. Talley the ashes were not originally placed on the recipients' foreheads. They were sprinkled on top of their heads in token of dirt shoveled over a corpse. (Some prayers refer to their being "sprinkled.")The ashes are a sign of our common mortality, as the traditional sentence of administration "Memento, hom, qui pulvis es..." implies. The rite is intended to inspire self-examination and repentance. It is not an absolution of any sort.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Recall that there is no penitential rite in the Ash Wed Mass--it's replaced by the imposition of ashes. I think this supports Bruce Ford's point that the rite is penitential but not in a form that includes absolution.
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    "I don't blame the publisher or the songwriter. They are just ignorant, like me."

    I can judge no individual, but it becomes clear after seeing enough of these songs, and reading essays by and interviews with the creators and dissemination of error, that some of the distorting or denying of doctrine is quite deliberate and agenda driven.

    There is a deliberate elevation of human agency over dependence on God, of the assembly as the primary presence of Christ over the Real Presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, of a friendly let's-meet-in-the-middle brand of "ecumenism" over bringing all the lost sheep into the One True fold...

    One specific, I find it impossible to believe a publisher, in a Catholic publishing house, knowing full well that hymns and songs had de facto replaced the propers in most Catholic worship, would be unaware that in the make-up of their editorial board they were, for all intents and purposes, allowing non-Catholics to write the Mass.

    Liturgy is not political press relations.
    A Democrat might hire a Republican hack and assume the words he writes will just as effectively express the platform of "the other side" for a pay-check.

    But a Catholic can not hire a non-believer, and assume that the words he writes will just as effectively reveal Catholic doctrine.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    But isn't that it's Bishops or priests who approve these songs to be in the hymnal? Where can I find who apporve this? My post wasn't just to express my feeings. I want to find the answer.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Who exactly is an unbeliever? Isn't Tom Conry Catholic?

    "a publisher, in a Catholic publishing house, knowing full well that hymns and songs had de facto replaced the propers in most Catholic worship, would be unaware that in the make-up of their editorial board they were, for all intents and purposes, allowing non-Catholics to write the Mass."

    I suspect they really didn't know that hymns replaced the propers. Keep in mind the majority experience prior to the council was the Low Mass. God only knows where we'd be today if the High Mass were the norm - we probably wouldn't be in this mess at all.

    And I suspect that NALR didn't really care about the theology in their hymnals. Does anyone know if Glory & Praise had an imprimatur? And then once G&P was in every pew, the "Catholic Truth Society" abandoned the totality of their name and became OCP, hocking trash to compete. And then GIA. I don't know the order these things happened, but I suspect that most of the publishers were thinking of the almighty dollar rather than Almighty God.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    I don't need to know what happended and why publishers did. It's very obvious they want money. Who are our protectors (Priests) to whom we can talk to stop feeding the faithful heresies (or semi- heresies)?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Google is your friend, Mia. A search for "bishops conference approve collection songs hymns" produces a list of links.

    One of the links that comes up is this fine article by Susan Benofy, who has written numerous helpful articles for Adoremus Bulletin about how church music got into its current state.
    http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7939
  • Pes
    Posts: 623
    "Ashes" is obviously a Hymn of Last Resort. There are many other texts and melodies that the Church considers preferable. The propers, of course. "Attende, Domine" as a seasonal introit, though (please) not every week. The point here being that the Roman Catholic experience of Lenten Mass has been limited to Tom Conry's "Ashes" no longer than the blink of an historical eye. Move on, for pity's sake.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    Looking at things from the perspective of history, maybe it doesn't seem like a big deal. But looking at it from the perspective of individuals and their faith lives and experience of the Catholic church and Lent, it looks quite different.

    Also, I think we attack a lot of things not because they're horribly bad in and of themselves (for instance, versus populum priests), but because they are symbolic of a greater problem at large (focus off God and on the congregation).
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    You are right Jam. No matter what, Christ is with our Church and will be forever and protect Her teaching.

    I wish that priests stop 'approving' the heresies, especially in our hymnal and feed us with the Truth. The faithful, the ones who want to be good catholics are very confused.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    chonak, thanks for that link… I learned a lot from reading it and from reading the article in Sacred Music that it references.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Bumpin' up...
  • Could someone recommend something for the procession for a cantor? This would most likely not have the congregation singing since they don't sing anything they don't know here.