Chant Melodies with wrong text
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 805
    I recently received an evaluation copy of the Journeysongs Third Edition Hymnal from OCP (Oregon Catholic Press) and I noticed that almost all of the chant in the hymnal was to the wrong words, such as "This Season Calls Us to Return" which was set to "Conditor Alme Siderum". A lot of similar things go on in this hymnal, but what was really weird for me was the combination of 2 chants, I forget which ones they were because they have since gone back to the publisher. I personally believe that with chant, the text should be the original Latin text, or at least an unaltered version of the English text, but even that is a bit much for me. Any thoughts on this?
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    They may be responding to a realization that people are using chant more - but running into the difficulty of not having material that they can copyright and then sell.

    of course the beauty of chant is how much is freely available, and the freedom from expensive publishers products it brings. (I mean one of the beauties...you know what i mean!)
    Thanked by 1Daniel Bennett Page
  • MichaelDickson
    Posts: 419
    Well, it's called 'Journeysongs'. That should be a warning, right there.

    As for 'the original Latin text', it is perhaps worth bearing in mind that over time, various Gregorian melodies have been used or adapted for use many times, to different texts. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with doing so, provided that the result adheres to the basic rule that the music serves to elevate the text. The problematic adaptations are the ones that do violence to the natural rhythm and meaning of the text.

    Adapting Gregorian melodies to English texts is a different matter, because patterns of accent in English are (typically) different from the Latin, and one must work hard to get the English to 'line up with' the melody, a job that typically requires modifying the melody, which then raises the question of violating the integrity of the melody, and so on and so on. It's a tricky business.
    Thanked by 2PaxMelodious Daniel Bennett Page
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    It's a tricky business.

    It is, indeed!
    But, John Mason Neale did pretty well with it.
    And, most Anglicans seem to be able to bring this off in fine English without doing violence to the Gregorian melodies. Catholics have a less than stellar track record here.
    Thanked by 4CCooze CHGiffen Casavant Organist Daniel Bennett Page
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Speaking of which, we just read through an English-translated Credo I that really didn't fit the chant well.
    Do y'all know of a well-set version?
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    There is the setting of credo one (the Sarum creed) at no. 720 in The Hymnal 1940. Large numbers of Episcopalians know this very well. Fix a word and a syllable here and there, and you should be able to use it. Also, Fr Columba has done one which is good. The one in the Roman Missal is very clumsy.
    Thanked by 2CCooze Daniel Bennett Page
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    I found the Hymnal 1940 one, but I am having trouble with the one by Fr. Columba - is it not part of the downloadable content on the Saint Meinrad website?
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    It should be on his website. If you can't get it I'll try putting it up here tomorrow some time. Actually, there are none that sing as smoothly as the 1940 one, nor are as true to the Gregorian melos. Too bad you aren't Anglican Use! You could use the 1940 version. (Except you'd have to supply the missing one of the four marks of the Church - '...one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic...'.)
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    I wasn't able to find it, but I wrote one up with the 1940 as a general guide, but trying to stick mostly with the relationship of the words to the Gregorian chant.

    How does this look?


    Credo I in English.pdf
    142K
    Credo I in English.mp3
    3M
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    @CCooze I haven't had time to look at yours, but icel's can be found here, about a third of the way down.

    http://www.icelweb.org/musicfolder/openmusic.php
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Thanks, Ben, but that version is the exact reason I went looking in the first place. Wasn't a fan.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    @ccooze Gotcha! Makes sense.

  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    Pretty nice, Mr Cooze -
    The 1940 provenance is apparent. I would quibble with you about a few syllabifications, word accents, and multiple note placements, but, as a whole, it stands to be better than others I've seen - especially the icel one, which is awful.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    Would 'chant melodies with the wrong' text include..
    Seq. Lauda Sion
    Hymn. Veni Creator

    Both use melodies hundreds of years older than the text.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    The following may serve to illustrate tomjaw's point about "chant melodies with the wrong text" for the hymn Veni Creator Spiritus ... which was also used for the hymn Salvator mundi, Domine, in the Sarum version of the plainchant melody in the beautiful alternatim setting by John Sheppard (1515-1560). My edition of the score (also available at CPDL) is attached.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-wNxkOWbC8
    Salvator mundi Domine.pdf
    105K
    Thanked by 4tomjaw M. Jackson Osborn MichaelDickson Casavant Organist
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 805
    I am not really the director in this though, there are too many contemporary choirs to just get like the St Jean de Brébuf hymnal but that is what I would like.
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