Chants for St. Sebastian
  • Our patronal feast is coming up, and I'd like to do some chant in honor of our patron. The CANTUS database gives 2 hymns and a number of antiphons etc., but I haven't been able to find any of it in modern (square) chant notation. I have access to original manuscript images, but I think my group would have issues reading from them. I could edit from them, but it's a stretch of my skill set and time, and if somebody has done it, it would be reinventing the wheel. Does anyone have any nice Sebastian chants ready to go?

    (I'm not looking for motets: too hard for my group right now. I know about Trent 88, Zarlino, Antico etc.)
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,749
    Do you have the text of the Hymns, all I could quickly find were Common Hymns for Martyrs...
    I may be able to quickly typeset a Hymn or so depending on the manuscript...
  • JL
    Posts: 171
    Check the Analecta Hymnica Medii Aevi--your local university library or seminary will probably have a full set, and some of the earlier volumes are online at archive.org (though not, alas, the thematic index.) For the most part, only the texts are given, but many of the texts are contrafacta of easily located tunes (a ton of hymns to "Ave maris stella", for example, or sequences to "Victimae paschali"), and others can easily be set to a standard long-meter chant hymn tune of your choosing.

    Also, there are tons of chant manuscripts online at the Bibliotheque Nationale's Gallica site (bnf.gallica.fr), and at europeana.eu, as well as several editions of printed chant books on Google Books (search for, say, "graduale" or "antiphonale".)
    Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,187
    Jeffrey, have you tried using the on-site chant notation editor at
    http://illuminarepublications.com/gregorio ? You could probably produce a good-looking score in a few minutes with that.
  • Here's a Sequence for St. Sebastian used in the Diocese of Coutances et Avranches (France) according to a supplement to the Liber Usualis dated 1928.
  • JL- Wow! I had no idea. Yes, we have them, in the "big house" (main Case Library) and I've gone through the volumes after 38. As far as texts, it's an embarrassment of riches.If I can match texts and music, I'm home free (texts are the hardest part for me anyway).

    Chonak- I've worked with that editor, and while it's not that easy, it does do good work. I'll probably use it if/when I have something to use it on.

    Arthur: that's just the sort of thing I was looking for... no muss, no fuss. I'll still be looking, because I can, but that's something we can do.
    Thanked by 1JL
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,187
    The Analecta doesn't specify tunes, so it may be helpful to find a text there and then search for that text in the on-line databases such as Cantus or "Global Chant Database" to see if there is a known tune for it.
  • JL
    Posts: 171
    Some of the texts in the Analecta are associated with specific tunes, as noted in the very fine print at the end of each. You pretty much have to skim through to find them, which is prettty time-consuming. If one of the texts lists a BNF shelfmark, however, there's a good chance the manuscript is online at Gallica.
    Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick
  • I found 2 different Sebastian texts in AH that specified the tune of Victimae paschali laudes.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,749
    @Jeffrey

    The Victimae paschali laudes is as you know a Sequence, but like many popular pieces imitations were written, below is a Christmas version from 'The Liturgical Year' by Abbot Gueranger, O.S.B. N.B. the modern version of this sequence is missing part of the text, this was omitted in the Trent Missal (possibly a mistake) Your versions should have an extra text that will fit the missing repeat. I have the translation of the sequence below, and will post it if needed.

    Virgini Mariæ laudes, intonent Christiani.

    Eva tristis abstulit; sed Maria protulit Natum qui redemit peccatores.

    Mors et vita modulo Convenere mirando; Mariæ Filius Regnat Deus.

    Dic nobis, Maria, Virgo clemens et pia;

    Quomodo facta es Genitrix, cum tu sis plasma de te nascentis?

    Anglelus est testis Ad me missus cælestis.

    Natus est ex spes mea, Sed incredula manet Judea.

    Credendum est magis soli Gabrieli forti Quam Judæorum pravæ cohorti.

    Scimus Christum procesisse Ex Maria vere. Tu nobis nate Rex, miserere.

    Amen.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Hey, that's fun...I like the notion of Christmas being a pre-Easter.
    Your problem line is "Credendum..." which would correspond to the line of the original which was removed by the Council of Trent for reason of anti-Semitism.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,749
    Your problem line is "Credendum..." which would correspond to the line of the original which was removed by the Council of Trent for reason of anti-Semitism.


    We sing the above during Christmastide, with the 'Credendum... ' line, we also sing the original version during Eastertide, BUT not as the Sequence that must follow the Missal text. (For a couple of years a Jew sang with our choir and he said there was no problem with singing those texts, we respect his judgement)

    Several writers on the Sequences suggest that the omission of that line was a mistake, I have yet to find any reference to the decree removing that line. Even though many people I have come across, suggest as you have done that it was removed, no one so far can provide a reference from Trent...
  • What, you mean that OTHER councils might have implemented things by means other than black-letter law?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,187
    In case anyone else finds this unclear (I certainly did):

    Apparently the Easter sequence Victimae paschali laudes had a pejorative line about the unbelief of the Jews: "Credendum est magis soli / Mariae veraci / quam Judaeorum Turbae fallaci". There are various festal sequences written as imitations of Victimae paschali, and many of them include a similar anti-Jewish line.

    After Trent, the 1570 Missale Romanum, reformed by papal authority, did not include the line, but it survived in some local liturgy books as late as the 1800s (e.g., one web site says an office book in Lyons (?) retained it.)

    I wouldn't assume that the change was requested by the Council, but it seems reasonable to assume that the change was intended by the reformers of 1570: it wasn't reversed in any later Missal revision, was it?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Sorry, I thought most people were aware of the general issue.
    Some time ago (and IIRC it was on Usenet, so 15-20 years) a big debate occurred, sparked by a Richard Taruskin review of the Pomerium recording of Busnoys sacred music, which contained a VPL (which being pre-Trent, contained the offending line). Taruskin argued that the line should have been bowdlerized (suggesting several possibilities) and that the argument from tradition/authenticity was invalid in that it perpetuated institutional anti-Semitism that not even the Church was supporting. I'm working from memory and oversimplifying the argument, of course. At the time I disagreed; today, I'm not sure.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,749
    @Chonak. It may be helpful for those looking for Chants for St. Sebastian for the comments on the Easter Sequence (Victimae...) and other imitations, be split into another thread.

    @Jeffrey Quick. To save us all the time of searching through the Analecta, would it be possible to give the references or even better the texts of these pieces for St Sebastian...

    Also I have just remembered that the Ambrosian Rite celebrates St. Sebastian, and they have a Vespers Hymn 'Sebastiani Martyres' see pg 560 of the Liber Vesperalis Ambrosiano. This Hymn has 9 verses, as is common with Ambrosian hymns. N.B. Other more authentic melodies may be found for this Hymn from Canto Ambrosiano, here is a link to one of their websites, (https://cantoambrosiano.wordpress.com)

    This Hymn is also found in the Liturgical Year, Gueranger with English translation in Vol. 3 (Christmas book II) pg. 352.

    Link to the Liber Vesperalis Ambrosiano, http://cantoambrosiano.altervista.org/testi_musicali_ambrosiani.html

    Link to the Liturgical Year,
    http://www.theliturgicalyear.org/theliturgicalyearpdfs.html

    N.B. The page numbers I have given above are from the original books, not the page numbers used by the .pdf. Please note that there have been several editions of the Liturgical Year, the page numbers are not always consistent.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • Yeah, I could do it, when I get it all together. Maybe what I have, when I'm back in the office. Out of curiosity, is there anyone else who works in a parish with Sebastian as patron?
  • JL
    Posts: 171
    So, how did it go? What did you choose?
  • We ended up using Arthur's sequence. How it went? coulda been better. I've had the sinus infection from Hell since the first of the year, and can barely speak, let alone sing. And we were down a couple people.I had time for 3 verses after the Offertory, then ditched the part piece for communion and did the rest of it (we should have done it from the beginning; we had time.). Plus we did the Propers for E2 because that's what the previous week's bulletin had us doing, but it really should have been the Propers of the transferred feast. Better next year.
    Thanked by 1JL
  • JL
    Posts: 171
    Sounds like a tremendous start all the same! Let's hope your efforts will inspire others to track down similar chants for their patronal feasts. Well done!