Towards an understanding of why we're wrong
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 340
    This discussion may be nothing more than a complaint with no tangible solution, but I do want to have the discussion. It specifically regards an American issue, since that is what I know and the CMAA largely address it.

    Two related thread sin contemporary thought play against us in the wider Catholic Church. First, as Americans (CMAA) or those associating themselves with a view held by Americans, we are told not to impose our view on the larger Church, as our western perspective is faulty in relation to world needs. However, second, within the Church in America, our views are seen as ignoring the needs of the American faithful, since it places worship above immediate, earthly need.

    This two-pronged rejection means that, first, our views are disregarded because we aren't addressing anything beyond our American purview, but even when we restrict ourselves thus, our America counterparts criticize us as being too "non-American," at least to the extent that we're ignoring American needs, in the contemporary, progressive view.

    Obviously, liturgical catechesis is necessary to address these complaints, as right worship of God is necessary for the health of the Church and her members. But does this seem to sum up some of the frustration that no matter how we couch our liturgical understanding, it is seen as wrong?
  • doneill
    Posts: 208
    (1) "the needs of the American faithful" are mostly the needs of white middle-to-upper class suburbanites, and they aren't needs at all.

    (2) "World needs" are largely dictated by those same white middle-to-upper class suburbanites. Actually ask those people of the world, and I suspect you will get different answers.

    What I've never understood is why we don't have more Catholic churches that have beautiful orthodox liturgies AND are socially "progressive" (whatever that means).
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,997
    First, as Americans (CMAA) or those associating themselves with a view held by Americans, we are told not to impose our view on the larger Church, as our western perspective is faulty in relation to world needs


    Those who are so critical of us have no shyness in asking us to pay for their crackpot schemes. World needs? Save the poor. If any of those programs we have contributed billions to actually were sound and worked, there would be far fewer poor. I have issues with the belief that the good fortune of one person, group, or country is the cause of someone else's misfortune. It ain't so.

    What I've never understood is why we don't have more Catholic churches that have beautiful orthodox liturgies...


    Who knows?

    AND are socially "progressive" (whatever that means)


    Whatever does that mean? Progressive? How gauche!
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • johnmann
    Posts: 175
    What I've never understood is why we don't have more Catholic churches that have beautiful orthodox liturgies AND are socially "progressive" (whatever that means).

    Because those same white middle-to-upper class suburbanites are socially conservative.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,142
    Except when they're not....
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    John Mann,

    Which people do you have in mind when you say that they are socially conservative?

    Perhaps by "socially conservative" you mean "unwilling to change society because we're on top"?
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Because it's all about "the people," not God.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    This is a great topic. Not to be polemical at all here, but I believe that the traditional Roman rite has enormous capacity to inspire social regeneration; that was indeed one of the primary aims of the original Liturgical Movement. They wanted to immerse the people in the Church's traditional liturgy, the Vetus Ordo, and believed that the vibrant, intelligent and informed participation of the people in the traditional Latin Mass was the key to reform of the entire secular order.

    Yet another quote from my handy little book of liturgical quotes, this time from Fr. Virgil Michel, the pioneer of the original Liturgical Movement in America, circa 1941:

    "Pius X tells us that the liturgy is the indispensable source of the true Christian spirit.

    Pius XI says that the true Christian spirit is indispensable for social regeneration.

    Hence, the conclusion: The liturgy is the indispensable basis of Christian social regeneration."

    I would hold up to you the example of Dorothy Day in the preconciliar era as an example of social progressivism + the Vetus Ordo, a truly raaaaaadical notion, that.
    Thanked by 1Drake
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 436
    I think @JulieColl brings up a very interesting and worthwhile point about how the Extraordinary Form of the Mass can be used to cross all worldly classes and boundaries: ethnicity, wealth (or lack thereof), social stature, etc. For example, the parish I was at prior to my current position offered the EF Mass in addition to 5 OF Masses in English and 1 in Spanish. There were all kinds of ethnic divides there, and when we came together for major liturgies, e.g. Holy Week, it was a forced "let's-try-to-make-everybody-happy" (which ends up making nobody happy) situation: bouncing back and forth between languages, least-common-denominator music, etc. (we tried incorporating a Latin ordinary setting, but that didn't fly with anybody except the parochial vicars and me). The English speakers wanted nothing to do with the Spanish speakers and vice versa. However, the EF Mass had attendees and ministers (sacred and lay) from every walk of life around the parish: English- and Spanish-speakers (and probably other languages as well), young, old, rich, poor...it didn't matter. At least for that hour to 90 minutes we were all united as one body. Both our primarily English- and Spanish-speaking priests were able to offer the Mass in the same way. That is the beauty of the EF that is more difficult to replicate in the OF, especially the way it is practiced here.

    Oh, and all that diversity made for some really tasty potluck suppers after the Mass!
    Thanked by 6JulieColl doneill RomanticStrings eft94530 gregp francis
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,213
    I'm having a great deal of difficulty with and getting past "why were wrong" in the title of this thread ... when it should read "why we're wrong" or "why we are wrong" ... and it would be helpful it the OP would edit the original title of this thread to correct it.

    I know we all make "misteaks" from time to time, but errors of grammar (especially with the proper use of apostrophes) and arcane misspellings seem to be way to prevalent here. A little proof-reading for grammar in addition to heeding the red wavy line for misspellings would go a long way towards improving this. Thank you, and YMMV.
    Thanked by 5Adam Wood JulieColl MatthewRoth eft94530 dboothe
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Another quote to ponder (1938) from Catherine De Hueck, speaking of the traditional Latin Mass:

    "Participation in the Mass will teach us the full understanding of the Mystical Body of Christ, leading us to a Christian sociology, which is the corner-stone of the Christian social order, and which alone can save our mad world from destruction." (Orate Fratres, "I Saw Christ Today".)

    A nice little graphic:

    Participation in the (traditional Latin) Mass > understanding of the Mystical Body > Christian social action


    (By the way, speaking of proper punctuation, capital letters and articles for many conventional Catholic terms are missing thanks to the editors of the liturgical books I've been reading, but I doubt such minimalist praxis was common usage in the '30's, '40's and '50's.)
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    arcane misspellings seem to be way to prevalent here

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry's_law

    I usually don't care about minor typos and all that.

    But the irony of a thread title bemoaning wrongness, with a big honking misspelling in it is just to much.
    Thanked by 5johnmann Spriggo CHGiffen Salieri Olivier
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I can't remember where I heard this, but a preconciliar liturgist suggested that Catholics ought to combine Rerum Novarum + Mediator Dei for a complete understanding of Catholic social teaching and its proper integration with the Liturgy.

    Speaking only for myself, integrating these outstanding papal documents into a thoughtful, reverent, dynamic and responsive Catholic belief system is the challenge.


    Rerum Novarum
    Mediator Dei
    Sacrosanctum Concilium
    Centesimus Annus

    (and maybe two paragraphs of Laudato Si)

  • doneill
    Posts: 208
    In this area, there is a nearby parish that is a relic of the Civil War age, that has two Masses: one attended primarily by African-Americans, and one primarily attended by whites. I don't think they even realize how segregationist that sounds. There is another parish with two Masses: one in Spanish and one in English. These communities never interact with each other, much less worship together. It seems to me that a Latin Mass using the music of the universal Church would do a world of good, but it would require a masochistic priest to actually do anything about it.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,142
    Well, understand that many parishes are a combination of coexisting sub-parishes organized around preferred Masses.
    Thanked by 2doneill kenstb
  • johnmann
    Posts: 175
    Do African-Americans not speak English?
    This hypothesizing isn't necessary. There was actually a time the Mass was exclusively in Latin. If anything, parishes were more segregated.
    It's like when people say that if Mass were in Latin, I could participate when I'm in Tokyo or Paris. The Church isn't going to revise the liturgy based on what's best for 0.001% of situations. Besides, isn't active participation internal?
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    MJO, how do you make a little yellow box? That's what's needed at this moment so I don't start shouting at poor johnmann. : )

    His last two sentences have set me off. AAAAAAAAAAAArgh.

    image
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 340
    @CHGiffen: Corrected. I typed the OP on my phone, and then apparently willfully misread the "were" correctly as "we're." I, too, find these kinds of mistakes unpleasant, and am ashamed to have been the source of one. The whole title is admittedly ambiguous, since I don't really think we're wrong, but it stands that some do.

    @Caleferink: I really like your anecdote about the Latin Mass's population actually reflecting the diversity of the parish. It seems like the socio-economic swath that supports the usus antiquor is more broad than any particular novus ordo community (with its preferences musically, liturgically, and socially). This is perhaps because, unlike the latter, which are shaped in part by socio-economic factors, the preference for the former is more formed by factors (of religious views of tradition, worship, etc.) that are not primarily social or economic.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Drake
    Posts: 221
    Hence, the conclusion: The liturgy is the indispensable basis of Christian social regeneration.


    I completely agree, and it really makes sense when you consider what liturgy (especially the Mass) is. Original sin turned all kinds of things on their head: God subjected to man, reason subjected to the passions, a propensity for good morphed into a propensity for evil.

    The work of Christ (which is also the work of the Church) is the work of restoring the correct order into this disordered world. The true worship of God is vital and paramount to this, for through the virtue of religion, we attempt to give God his due. We subject ourselves to Him. When we do this, the rest follows.

    The Mass, being the very same sacrifice of Jesus Christ on Calvary, is the single most effective means of social regeneration. By extension, our participation in this sacrifice renews us (the sacrifice being applied to us specifically through the sacraments) and in a mysterious way promotes regeneration in our fellow man. The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church, for their sacrifice is marvelously an extension of His sacrifice. As church musicians, we have the extraordinary privilege of participating in this in a particular way (because of what the liturgy is) without shedding our blood (usually ;-) ).

    Thanks, JulieColl, for the insights.
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 340
    In a recent thread, I mentioned James Hansen's Cantor BASICS, which gave me a view into the mind of the Spirit of Vatican II mindset musically and liturgically, and this is exactly the issue. When our so-called worship of God is focused on us ministering to others without really going to Him, then we obviously aren't worshiping God. I really like @JulieColl's two related formulae posted here:
    Yet another quote from my handy little book of liturgical quotes, this time from Fr. Virgil Michel, the pioneer of the original Liturgical Movement in America, circa 1941:

    "Pius X tells us that the liturgy is the indispensable source of the true Christian spirit.

    Pius XI says that the true Christian spirit is indispensable for social regeneration.

    Hence, the conclusion: The liturgy is the indispensable basis of Christian social regeneration."
    A nice little graphic:

    Participation in the (traditional Latin) Mass > understanding of the Mystical Body > Christian social action
    Clearly, then, the true Christian spirit is an understanding of the Mystical Body. This seems to be something that progressives would want to accomplish on their own, but it cannot be disconnected from the worship rightly due to the Author of creation, the Founder of the Mystical body.

    What seems sad is that the above Liturgical Movement formulae demanded not so much a sweeping reform of the liturgy, but a reform of liturgical formation so that the faithful could enter more deeply into the mysteries. At some point, the balance tipped from a primary focus on formation, with moderate reforms, to major reforms so that formation wouldn't be necessary (as if).
  • doneill
    Posts: 208
    johnmann, yes, of course there is a common language, which makes the situation even more reprehensible. But nonetheless, the music for the two Masses is different as well. In that situation, English propers might be a wonderful thing, because they are not identified strongly with either community. I have to object, however, to your logic about past and present segregated parishes, on the "two wrongs don't make a right" grounds. It wasn't right then, and it isn't right now. Admittedly, a Latin Mass is not a perfect solution - you still have the issue of the language of the homily, and if the Novus Ordo, the Prayer of the Faithful (at least I wouldn't fancy composing prayers in Latin each week).
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    it is just to much.

    Adam, I literally LOL'd when I read that.
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood RomanticStrings Liam
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,142
    DOUGH!
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,997
    What is wrong with two parishes with two different congregations and two different cultures? If both parishes are thriving and doing God's work, to quote Hilary, "What difference does it make?" Do we all have to join hands and sing Kum-ba-yah in a common tongue, share the peace and microbes, and munch and sip bread and cup around the table? We are not all the same, nor should we be, and a plague on political correctness and those who advocate it.
  • doneill
    Posts: 208
    As long as we are dealing with typos - I assume you mean Hillary Clinton, and not Hilary of Poitiers. No, not Kum-ba-yah, although it would great if we could at least sing together the Sanctus from Mass XVIII. And yes, I believe that we should be munching and sipping bread together. While we may have various cultural expressions, we are the same in that we are Catholic. That's not political correctness.
  • MichaelDickson
    Posts: 419
    I'm honestly not really sure what this thread is about, but I cannot resist:

    I once had a student write in an essay, "Galileo was burned to a steak." Where to begin?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,142
    the Beguines, of course.

    http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/images/2013/05/blogs/economist-explains/20130511_blp508.jpg
    Thanked by 3MichaelDickson eft94530 Olivier
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,997
    Actually, I was referring to Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton, not the other Hilary, if we are being precise. One is dead, and the other's political career will hopefully soon be the same.

    Even before the Council, it is true that the Latin Ordinary was the same. However, with accents and local customs of delivery, it would have appeared different in Germany, France, and Italy. That precise Latin did seem to pick up local accents quite readily.

    I am careful with the crowd with whom I munch bread and sip wine. Christ ate with sinners, but He was much more charitable than I have ever pretended to be. Others are free to enjoy their "cultural expressions," as long as they keep them to themselves and don't interfere with mine.

  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Do African-Americans not speak English?

    This thread is a hoot.
    By gosh and golly they do. And for the cognoscenti, if they were asked which among the GIA hymnals was both "conservative" and culturally specific, it would be -
    LEAD ME, GUIDE ME.
    IIRC, they even had chant metric hymns.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,997
    Our folks from Cameroon know all the traditional hymns that we know. They also know chant.
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