Is Keith Green's "There is a Redeemer" approved for use in Catholic Church?

SeasonPsalt

Is Keith Green's "There is a Redeemer" approved for use in Catholic Church? It's been going through my head all day, it's an Advent song, a Christmas song, an Easter song, and good for year round use.

It doesn't really matter to me if you like the song or not, I'm just asking if it can be sung during Mass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_YM_hYzcPo

I suppose if it's never been approved the line "...and leaving Your Spirit 'till the work on Earth is done." might have to go to doctrine or something. The rest of the song is pretty standard Catholic stuff.

chonak

It's probably never been submitted for any kind of approval. Green was a somewhat anti-Catholic Evangelical for much of his life, sadly short, so you're right to want to check his lyrics for any doctrinal concerns.

melofluent

I love Keith Green's music and passion. Considering Richard's remarks, Green was unfortunately virulently anti-Catholic. And like Rich Mullins, he didn't live long enough to see his way home, I imagine. And I suspect that's how God planned it all along.
I would not use Keith's music at liturgy, unless you're proposing his arrangement of hymns like "Holy, Holy, Holy."

SeasonPsalt

Thanks.
Though I have recently sung (with gusto, hopefully not too much gusto for my fellow parishioners) A Mighty Fortress and Come Thou Long Expected Jesus I would not want to be making some sort of a statement by singing Keith Green, even if the song is doctrinally sound.
I knew he was Evangelical, but I did not know he was anti-Catholic.

chonak

Here are the lyrics (well, I don't know for sure how reliable these sites are):

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/k/keith+green/there+is+a+redeemer_20077361.html

There is a redeemer,
Jesus, God's own Son,
Precious Lamb of God, Messiah,
Holy One,

Jesus my redeemer,
Name above all names,
Precious Lamb of God, Messiah,
Hope for sinners slain.

Thank you oh my father,
For giving us Your Son,
And sending Your Spirit,
'Til the work on Earth is done.

When I stand in Glory,
I will see His face,
And there I'll serve my King forever,
In that Holy Place.

Thank you oh my Father,
For giving us Your Son,
And sending Your Spirit,
'Til the work on Earth is done.

There is a Redeemer,
Jesus, God's own Son,
Precious Lamb of God, Messiah,
Holy One,

Thank you oh my Father,
For giving us Your Son,
And sending Your Spirit,
'Til the work on Earth is done.

And sending Your Spirit,
'Till the work on Earth is done.

Songwriters: GREEN, MELODY
There Is A Redeemer lyrics © Universal Music Publishing Group

Apparently Mrs. Green wrote the lyrics.

They don't look explicitly heretical, but

(1) they are individualistic -- it is the voice of one soul, not the voice of the Church; and

(2) the expression about "sending your Spirit / 'Til the work on earth is done" suggests that the gift of the Holy Spirit is something temporary, given for the mission of the Church only, as if the Holy Spirit would end after the Church is completed in Heaven. (Some Evangelicals don't even have a clear understanding that Holy Spirit is a Person: is that a factor, perhaps?)

MatthewRoth

Yes, it sounds a little Monarchical, doesn't it?

Kathy

I like this one a lot. Wouldn't use it at Mass, but I love it.

https://youtu.be/1xWAdbaCp30

CharlesW

When I was in college, the men's choir to which I belonged was required to attend and support a week-long series of lectures sponsored by a very wealthy patron of the school. A prominent English composer and conductor came to supervise the music. He brought with him some of the worst British praise music anyone could imagine. That is when I first heard, "There is a Redeemer," along with other wretched selections. I will hate that dog of a song forever. LOL.

SeasonPsalt

@Kathy - "How Many Kings" ... LOVE it. Never heard it before.

Chonak, those lyrics look correct to me, though I didn't check word for word

(1) they are individualistic -- it is the voice of one soul, not the voice of the Church; and

(2) the expression about "sending your Spirit / 'Til the work on earth is done" suggests that the gift of the Holy Spirit is something temporary, given for the mission of the Church only, as if the Holy Spirit would end after the Church is completed in Heaven. (Some Evangelicals don't even have a clear understanding that Holy Spirit is a Person: is that a factor, perhaps?)

I disagree with your point (1), as it is a universal "There is a redeemer" for all mankind, including the Church, followed by personal reflection of one soul. This isn't an "I come to the garden alone.... and He walks with me and He talks with me" type of individualistic song. Though "When we stand in glory, we will see His face" or "Jesus our redeemer" would certainly have been better in my not so humble opinion.

I do agree with your point (2), which is the line I was uncomfortable with, as I am not a scholar in doctrine. I think the Church teaches the Magisterium is given the Holy Spirit for instruction, and the Holy Spirit may be given to all believers, but not necessarily for instruction. Also I don't know about the temporary nature the song obviously implies, or what the "when the work on Earth is done" means. Now a simple search of the Catechism might answer this for me, and I'll probably do this later just because my curiosity is now piqued. Especially because I SHOULD know this.

But regardless, I would refuse to sing it in Liturgical setting unless specifically directed because unlike with Mighty Fortress is our God, or Come, Thou Long Expected Jesus, there has not been time enough to heal potential rift wounds for his songs, with his anti-Catholic stance. Honestly I hope for him it will be a small issue that will take very little time in Purgatory to cleanse. Maybe already done. I've got a lot of problems with Luther and Wesley, but those hymns they wrote which we sing now are beautiful, acceptable and good.

But that's why I asked here first...

MatthewRoth

Wesley's hymns tend to express Catholic theology, so I usually don't have trouble with those hymns. While I realize "A Mighty Fortress" is the paraphrase of a psalm, it also symbolically stands as the battle cry of the Reformation.

Chris Garton-Zavesky

SeasonPsalt,

There are two questions which need answers, in principle, in order to decide if something is suitable to be sung at Mass.

a) Does the text conform to right doctrine? (Others have commented on this).
b) Even if the text does, is the music appropriate for Mass, that is, for the solemn public worship of God?

I didn't say "proper" for Mass because there are, already, those texts and music assigned by the Church to be sung at Mass, and these are properly speaking the "propers", but other things may be admitted [skipping caveats].

I have said elsewhere that music and texts written by virulent anti-Catholics shouldn't be used at Mass, so if the lyricist and the musician are/were virulently anti-Catholic, it's inappropriate to use their material out of respect for their intended use. Tell a Methodist that his service is the unbloody representation of the sacrifice of calvary and he'll tell you it isn't.

chonak

It may be surprising that Methodist theology about the Eucharist includes elements that sound like fragments of Catholic theology.

A document on the subject says (in excerpts):

Holy Communion is a type of sacrifice. It is a re-presentation, not a repetition, of the sacrifice of Christ. Hebrews 9:26 makes clear that "he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to remove sin by the sacrifice of himself." Christ's atoning life, death, and resurrection make divine grace available to us. We also present ourselves as sacrifice in union with Christ (Romans 12:1; 1 Peter 2:5) to be used by God in the work of redemption, reconciliation, and justice. In the Great Thanksgiving, the church prays: "We offer ourselves in praise and thanksgiving as a holy and living sacrifice, in union with Christ's offering for us . . ."

Holy Communion is eschatological, meaning that it has to do with the end of history, the outcome of God's purpose for the world-"Christ has died; Christ is risen; Christ will come again" (UMH; page 10). We commune not only with the faithful who are physically present but with the saints of the past who join us in the sacrament. To participate is to receive a foretaste of the future, a pledge of heaven "until Christ comes in final victory and we feast at his heavenly banquet"

Christ's presence in the sacrament is a promise to the church and is not dependent upon recognition of this presence by individual members of the congregation.

SeasonPsalt

Chris Garton-Zavesky

music and texts written by virulent anti-Catholics shouldn't be used at Mass, so if the lyricist and the musician are/were virulently anti-Catholic, it's inappropriate to use their material out of respect for their intended use.

Honestly, I'm not sure I agree with you. It's St Nicholas Feast day so today you might get a buy (used to be called an indulgence?) if you punch a heretic.

But regardless of the original intent, if a Luther song has been vetted as OK for centuries I'm not sure I would want to argue with the vettors, even if they are actually wrong. Unless I'm in a position to guarantee they are wrong to a confessor.

I'm more of a St Jerome kind of guy. "Oh, I screwed up. I think I'll beat myself with a rock." When I punch heretics they might punch back.

chonak

In some congregations (for example, at a traditional Latin Mass), anything by Luther would offend parishioners.

On the other hand, there are great Lutheran Advent hymns by equally committed but less famous heretics that wouldn't shock anyone.

MatthewRoth

When using Scripture it's hard to escape the parts of the church's teaching that are revealed in Scripture. Cranmer based his eucharistic prayer on Scripture, so even he managed to include overtones of a propitiatory sacrifice.

C. Wesley's "Hark the Herald, Angels Sing" is about the Incarnation, though it gets eucharistic and rather Catholic, especially in regards to the last stanza's' treatment of the "Woman." One might wonder about how he treats image and likeness, but here it is:

Come, Desire of nations come,
Fix in us Thy humble home;
Rise, the Woman's conquering Seed,
Bruise in us the Serpent's head.
Adam's likeness now efface:
Stamp Thine image in its place;
Second Adam, from above,
Reinstate us in Thy love.
Hark! the herald angels sing
Glory to the new-born King!

Kathy

Rise, the Woman's conquering Seed,
Bruise in us the Serpent's head.
Adam's likeness now efface:
Stamp Thine image in its place;
Second Adam, from above,
Reinstate us in Thy love.

The proto-evangelium. My ninth graders learned that last week.

CHGiffen

It may be surprising that Methodist theology about the Eucharist includes elements that sound like fragments of Catholic theology.

No wonder it has been said of Methodists that they are (or should be) Catholics who simply haven't found their way home yet. I was one of those.

Thanks, chonak. And thanks, MatthewRoth, for the Wesley, who was one of those Methodists that was really quite close to home all along.

SeasonPsalt

@Kathy.... (everyone else, this is Off Topic)

The proto-evangelium. My ninth graders learned that last week.

That work has changed my view of Joseph. I now always think of Joseph as an older man when he was with Mary. I re-listen to this at almost every Marian HDO (recording is kind of quiet, I had to burn to CD to listen to this in my truck and actually hear it) Audio Proto-Evangelium of James and I share this link frequently on social media.

Though it's not Canon, I believe it's really what happened.

And I just got a print of this for my wife from monasterycandy.com, we both love it. And Mary is NOT the new Eve. So says St. Irenaeus

Richard R.

Keith Green... on the Forum. If I live to be a hundred...
He was very big in my college evangelical days. I find myself parodying him occasionally ("My eyes are dry; my pain is old; my heart is hard; my faith is cold..."). In retrospect, that song could be construed as Eucharistic: "The oil is you, your Spirit of love; Come fill me up with the wine of your blood."

SeasonPsalt

I didn't have a lot of exposure to Keith Green, which is likely obvious because I was not aware of his anti-Catholic stance.

When I was in High School, one of my friends won tickets to one of his concerts from a radio station and we went together. (1981 or 1982-ish?)

Follows is how this came about [CAUTION! Sort of dorky alert!]

I was contemplating on what the message or meaning of Christmas really is.

...That Jesus was born?... no, not really.
...That God Incarnate came to Earth?... Well, that's a little better. But still...

Then, from the deep cobwebs in my brain came this line:

"There is a Redeemer, Jesus, God's own Son. Precious Lamb of God, Messiah, Holy One."

And then of course that got stuck in my head for hours.

No, it's not a personal revelation, it's merely an "aha" moment within the dusty workings of my own brain.

That's how Keith Green and this song ended up on the forum.

Chris Garton-Zavesky

SeasonPsalt,

So, if I understand you correctly, this text (and its accompanying music) provided you with an insight into God, and therefore it should be (might be?) appropriate for use at Mass.

If Mass were anthropocentric (more about Man than about God), that would make sense.

SeasonPsalt

@Chris

So, if I understand you correctly, this text (and its accompanying music) provided you with an insight into God, and therefore it should be (might be?) appropriate for use at Mass.

Yes, that is EXACTLY what I am saying. If a song provides ME with an insight into God, it might provide OTHERS with an insight into God. Which is not anthropocentric. Many songs hymns are theocentric - Gloria, Holy Holy, etc, and then many others (including many of the Psalms) provide Christians with insight into God.

But within minutes of original posting, it became obvious this song will NOT be a good choice for liturgical use, so I would not use or suggest it's use in a liturgical setting.

This is why there is a process that includes many better (or better educated at the least) minds than my own before introducing a song or hymn into a resource approved for liturgy. And I didn't even get past the "brainstorming" stage before the process on this one.

melofluent

Keith Green... on the Forum. If I live to be a hundred...

You get a two-fer this week, Richard, as I've got a piece about Rich Mullins at the Café.

chonak

I don't know what source SeasonPsalt is relying on when he says that St. Irenaeus did not consider Mary to be the "new Eve", but there are passages of Irenaeus that seem to support the analogy.

For example, the last paragraph of this section from the Adversus haereses.

Here's an excerpt:

And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin ... having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.

Gambero's book "Mary and the Fathers of the Church" brings together a lot of resources on this theme. In the book's index, they are under "Eve-Mary parallel", with references to Ambrose, Athanasius, Cyril of Jerusalem, Ephrem, Epiphanius, Fortunatus, Irenaeus, Jerome, John Chrysostom, Justin Martyr, Peter Chrysologus, Proclus, Psuedo-Chrysostom, Sedulius, Tertullian, and Theodotus.

Richard R.

"...a piece about Rich Mullins..."

Never 'eard of him.

Kathy

Used to be my boss...

irishtenor

Rich Mullins used to be your boss?

Kathy

Yes.

CCooze

Maybe someone else touched on this and I simply missed it, but the line

When I stand in Glory,
I will see His face,
And there I'll serve my King forever,
In that Holy Place.

is quite presupposing and sounds awfully Protestant to me.

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