Of choirs, organs, and microphones.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Say that you have a loft.
    Then, you put a big organ in that loft.
    In front of that organ, you place some singers.

    What sort of microphone(s) can amplify the sound of the singers without picking up the big organ behind them?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    What sort of microphone(s) can amplify the sound of the singers without picking up the big organ behind them?


    I haven't found any which is why the microphones I have are turned off.
  • Charles' solution is exemplary!
    The best thing to do with microphones in front of singers is to turn them off.
    This assures that the sound of human voices in song will be pure, genuine, and professional.
    It is the organist's responsibility to register any accompaniments accordingly.
  • Our Parish's sound system does include microphones for those in the loft, but our parish Priest insisted that anything coming from the loft would still come from behind... thus there are two speakers to help "amplify" the choir/cantor more coming from behind that were installed when the new sound system was installed last year. It seems to work well, and we have quite a large organ in our loft...
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    What sort of microphone(s) can amplify the sound of the singers without picking up the big organ behind them?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFQCYpIHLNQ
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Both WICath's and my parish have similarly-designed church buildings, and NEITHER of them requires a mike for the singers in the loft. Period.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • There likely are specialist microphones that can do what you ask - however they may require very close micing of your singers, which is often not a good approach in a choral situation. I would not be asking here for them. Find yourself a skilled acoustic consultant, who starts with understanding the goals of your music programme, and ask them for recommendations.


    This assures that the sound of human voices in song will be pure, genuine, and professional.


    Provided they were pure, genuine and professional in the first place.

    They will also be inaudible to people shut-ins etc who receive recordings of the service, and perhaps also some people in your church building too, depending on how well built it is.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Adam,

    image

    Will the Jr. model provide sufficient filtering of organ noise?

    We will spend the money if absolutely necessary, but would like to keep within the budget where possible. The Jr. might allow us to save a few bucks.

    Thoughts?
    EP0350133E.jpg
    225 x 225 - 35K
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Say that you have a loft.
    Then, you put a big organ in that loft.
    In front of that organ, you place some singers.

    What sort of microphone(s) can amplify the sound of the singers without picking up the big organ behind them?


    Why?

    If they are singing while the organ is playing, the organ should be balanced to support them, not overpower them. If they are incapable of projecting sound due to a ability or lack of training, they shouldn't be singing...

    Much of the bad singing is people who can't sing being heard.

    I heard a very lovely piece last night in which a person introduced it by speaking over a microphone when they could easily have been heard without it and it was disconcerting to hear this loud sound followed by the choir singing beautifully.
  • If they are incapable of projecting sound due to a ability or lack of training, they shouldn't be singing...


    Having uttered many astute truths (in spite of his unfortunate defenses of organ simulacra), my esteemed friend Noel has just uttered one of his most unassailably pelucid observations ever. Microphones do not belong in front of choirs. The only singers who use microphones are entertainers (who really cannot claim to be genuine musicians) and those who scream (or mumble) into them at ambos whilst pretending to be cantors or cantresses.
  • At the risk of answering the original question and incurring the wrath of the microphone haters (and let me say that I'm not particularly in favor of them in church, but I have no agenda to push here, either), there are microphones that will do the job you ask. At one time, I worked in various studios (where some very talented musicians, including vocalists, sang or played in front of -- gasp! -- microphones) and was exposed to many microphones and their subtle and not-so-subtle differences.

    If you have two sources of sound (granted, one is a choir and so itself 'multiple') and you wish to capture one but not the other in a microphone in a live situation where they are near to one another, your best bet is to have them facing different directions. The difference doesn't have to be much, but if you can get them at 90 degrees to one another, so much the better. Then use a cardioid or hypercardioid mic in front of the singers. It will pick up sound directly in front of it, but very little from the sides, and little to none from the back. (Hypercardioid are prone to pick up a bit more from the back than cardioid.)

    If you have many singers, you will probably need multiple mics because cardioid and hypercardioid (there is also a 'supercardioid' type which is in between) are quite directional, and with just one, even with well-positioned singers, you are likely to pick them up very unevenly. Still, if all of the mics have the organ significantly off-axis then the organ will not be heard much through the mic. Getting the singers close to the mic also helps because the 'amount' that the mic picks up is not a linear function of distance from the mic. (With singers close to the mic -- not 'eating it', but close -- you can turn the gain on the mic way down and it will still pick them up but not hear the organ almost at all.)

    Any decent microphone will specify its pick-up pattern (some are capable of multiple patterns, selected with a switch). For a specific example, the Shure SM58 is a workhorse cardioid mic made for vocalists, not expensive, reliable for decades at a time, and easy to find. (They grow on trees.)
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Why?


    So we can Shout to the North from All the Ends of the Earth.

    This hypothetical situation of microphones was presented as a question to me and I did not know the answer. So, I asked a forum of church musicians, thinking that maybe someone had some experience with this.

    I'm not an expert on microphones, and that kinda sorta indicates how I feel about them.
  • MBWMBW
    Posts: 175
    Amplification systems in 99.9% of American Catholic churches are like the lighting in a typical house. You turn it on and take what it gives you.

    Subtle? No.
    Artistic? No.

    Effective? Well, things get louder, but not always clearer - and rarely well regulated for volume or equalization. Also rarely effective in making the sound appear to come from whoever is making the sound. So the homily does not sound like it is coming from the ambo, it sounds like it is coming from the speaker cluster/column/whatever as do the presidential prayers from the chair, etc. Virtually never with the kind of subtlety and flexibility the OP asks about.

    Is it possible for amplified sound to be subtle and artistic? Yes.
    Effective? Yes

    Will it take more time and money? Yes and yes.

    Will it happen? Not likely.

    Why? (WARNING! Massive generalization coming!) Because the celebration of Mass (in either OF or EF) is not taken very seriously as a human sensory experience. This is why so little attention is paid to art, music, sound, homily preparation, lector preparation, everything preparation. It doesn't matter what the experience actually is, it only matters that we go through the proper motions. (The proper motions are different in the OF and EF.)

    Clearly (from the state of amplification (and American building acoustics) in Catholic churches) it really is not that important to the church what kind of sonic experience Catholics have at Mass.

    Question: What percentage of Catholic churches that install or renovate their amplification system hire a reputable acoustic engineer to advise and then actually follow the advice. My guess is less than 10%.

    Another question: How often do Catholic churches include a study of the building's acoustics and how to improve them when a sound system is being installed and what percentage spend money to follow the study's recommendations. My guess is less than 5%.

    The other extreme? Over 20 years ago I heard beautifully modulated choral singing and spoken word in a live performance of Man of La Mancha. The sound was amplified, even though the singers could have projected into the (rather dry) theater. The amplification helped keep the sound even through the theater. What I heard was part singer (original source) and part amplification (from well located speakers). If they could make a complicated staged presentation sound great 20 YEARS AGO - now so much more is possible.

    I would prefer the entire liturgy to be unamplified, with natural sound emanating from speaker, singers, instruments, and aspergilla. Where factors such as building size or acoustics (not, however, poor singing or speaking skills) indicate that amplification may be useful, it could be done well if taken seriously.

    And by the way, to wrest open another bag of worms, I really detest fake electronic tower bells (including the older style amplified "bell generators").
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    image
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980

    If they are singing while the organ is playing, the organ should be balanced to support them, not overpower them. If they are incapable of projecting sound due to a ability or lack of training, they shouldn't be singing...


    Life should be so simple. I have some singers who are pretty good, I also have 2 or 3 who are really bad, but I can't get rid of them for political reasons. I suspect that is not unusual and in that case, you deal with it and go on.

    Microphones are not needed in my reverberant building. I have been in places so acoustically dead that no one would be heard without them. It's like the old rule with organs, placement determines everything.

    The amplification I use is a couple of monitor speakers in the loft to boost the sound level from the ambo and altar. It doesn't help that priests and readers can't seem to get the hang of correctly speaking into a microphone. They talk into their chests while reading, so everything gets muffled. Some of my older choir members don't hear as well anymore, so the monitors benefit them.

    Question: What percentage of Catholic churches that install or renovate their amplification system hire a reputable acoustic engineer to advise and then actually follow the advice


    I haven't found many really qualified sound technicians. Most are folks who decided to set up shop based on what they thought they knew about sound. I know of churches that spent thousands on systems that were badly designed, installed, and simply don't work.
    Thanked by 2MBW PaxMelodious
  • When mass is broadcast, as ours is to shuts ins on the radio and on the internet, there has to be mikes, even though our lovely little parish church has a great acoustic.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Yes bonniebede, but you will probably want the organ heard as well in that case.

    We hired a sound engineer for our new church. He recommended ceiling accoustic tiles. The committee has decided to trust that advice and try without the tiles first. All I can do is pray that they will not deaden the sound too much that we need to add microphones.
    Tiles are installed but Windows, pews and floor tiles are not yet. Ill keep you posted. It sounds pretty dead to me currently.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • 'Acoustic tiles' should more properly be called 'acoustic deadeners'. This is not the way to improve sound or audiblility. Here is yet another 'acoustical engineer' whose idea of good acoustics is a padded cell with several hundred thousand dollars worth of PA system to (poorly) compensate for the lack of acoustics that he or she has engineered.
  • MBWMBW
    Posts: 175
    donr

    I am assuming that your "sound engineer" is an electronic equipment salesman or, slightly better, a public address system designer. Probably not either an acoustician or a sound designer familiar with Catholic worship.

    Given that..

    My two cents on acoustic deadeners: there are two common sources of this (almost always) pernicious idea.

    1. The "sound engineer" knows only one solution for every situation: add deadener, then amplify enough to overcome the created deadness. (As MJO said above.)
    2. The "sound engineer is actually capable of designing an appropriate system for your church (assuming it really needs one) but the church has not given a clear specification of what is desired. In general, I would ask for some genuine room (not electronic) reverberation and sound directivity IE that the sound appear to emanate from the speaker or singer. If the engineer doesn't know what the church wants, or if the church doesn't know what it needs, then - out comes the acoustic tile.

    In most situations, musicians have limited input on this decision. This is another indication of the lack of seriousness with which our churches take the sensory experience of the liturgy. I wish you the best. Sometimes these things turn out quite well.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    One Sunday, about nine years ago, we entered the loft and received a jolt. Some salesman had flattered and convinced the pastor into thinking he needed choir microphones suspended from the ceiling, a multi-thousand dollar sound system, and ceiling fans to keep the temperature down. Did I mention no musicians were consulted on any of this?

    Well, you know what happened and it was predictable. The choir microphones picked up ambient noise and magnified pedal pipes overloading the speakers. The sound system was so complex no one knew how to use it - and we had no real use for it to begin with. The ceiling fans could only be run on low speed or singers and organ sounded like the kid singing through an electric fan. I promptly turned it all off.
  • It is true that some engineers have engineered positive acoustical environments for liturgy and its music. I have heard of a number of such encounters. The important factor is to be certain that one's 'engineer' understands what a positive environment for making music from the classical tradition is, and is enthusiastic about making it a reality in one's church. A certain reverberation suitable for one's church, which will enhance music making, both choral and instrumental, should be a non-negotiable desideratum. In securing the services of such a person one would be wise to seek a recommendation from an organ builder of repute, or someone responsible for acoustics in university or municipal concert halls. Any PA systems, if at all necessary, should be strictly engineered to enhance musical sound, not compensate for the lack of sound nurturing and reverberant acoustics. I'm sure that there are others here who are more competent than I to address these matters. But, one thing is an unassailable certainty: carpeting, pew cushions, and so-called 'acoustical tile', any sound-deadening materials, are in any situation acoustic destroyers. Without these I would dare assert that by far most PA systems would be unnecessary.
    Thanked by 2MBW CHGiffen
  • In September I took over at a Parish where the choir was accustomed to each individual singer having their own microphone. (!) I promptly removed all but two and reworked the sound board so those mics pick up a wider range of sound. I only turn them on for hymns, when the organ is registered not to support the choir, but rather to support the congregation. My small-ish, somewhat untrained choir would not stand a chance projecting over a full organ registration. Obviously, if and when the choir sings something non-congregational, the organ must be registered appropriately. But I think there needs to be a distinction between registering the organ for the congregation and for the choir. In most churches, especially larger ones, there is a distinct difference.

    I should also mention that I am working in a large-ish, well-built church. The entire sanctuary and nave are carpeted, so there is some deadening of the sound. Were the carpet pulled up, I suspect we could get away with not having microphones at all, even on hymns.
  • MBWMBW
    Posts: 175
    In securing the services of such a person one would be wise to seek a recommendation from an organ builder of repute, or someone responsible for acoustics in university or municipal concert halls.


    This
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Read about acoustics here.

    The stop list of the organ and its current disposition.

    The organ that is mentioned pictured in the hall.image

    A church with a large volume of air and hard surfaces all around amplifies sound on its own, but it also quiets things as the whispering of people, moving charts and pews and all is lost in an overall seashell sound create by molecules of the air.

    Professional organists and choir directors turn down lucrative positions without regret when the organ is insufficient and the acoustics are such that they absorb rather than reflect and diffuse sound. Churches that fail like this are like shooting pool on a table covered not in very thin felt with with foam rubber a few inches thick, and the numbers not of hard rubber, but more of the same foam. You can strike balls and make them roll, but you can't shoot pool.

    Bishops and priests don't know this and architects (those who really, really want the contract) don't bring it up.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn